Fireside chat with Tiffani Bova:Changing the Way You Think About Growth

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Julia Nimchinski: Welcome back to the AI summit day 2.

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Julia Nimchinski: Yesterday we covered AI’s impact on marketing sales and venture capital, and today’s day is going to be a dive deep into AI driven growth. Strategies, agentic Gtm. And AI. Powered product led models. We’ve got another incredible lineup featuring Tiffany, Beauvan.

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Julia Nimchinski: Scott Brinker, Connie Kwan, Lena waters and amazing discussions on digital Ops. AI. Plg. And Gtn. Orchestration

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Julia Nimchinski: as always follow along the conversation in our Hsc. Slack. And please don’t hesitate to check out all the sponsors on the right corner, to see on your screen

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Julia Nimchinski: and to kick things off. Today we have a fireside chat with Stephanie Boba.

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Julia Nimchinski: who needs no introduction, obviously renowned growth strategist.

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Julia Nimchinski: And we’ve got Ann Hollander, strategic advisor at the strategic edge.

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Julia Nimchinski: Welcome to the show, Tiffany and Ann, are you both doing.

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Tiffani Bova: Yeah, thank you for having me excited to be here.

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Julia Nimchinski: 1st question. I guess to you, Tiffany, what’s the biggest mindset shift leaders need to make today?

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Julia Nimchinski: Oh, that’s I mean, we don’t have enough time.

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Tiffani Bova: But you know, if I had to start way at the top, I think one of the mindset shifts, and this is a old adage, but kind of what got us here might not get us there.

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Tiffani Bova: A lot of the reason that businesses have found themselves in what I call a growth stall right, either 2, 3, 4 quarters of slowed growth, and in some cases no growth.

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Tiffani Bova: It unfortunately has a lot more to do with internal bureaucracy and inertia versus external factors. Now, I’m not saying external factors don’t impact growth. Obviously, but the majority of them are because the business isn’t as agile or it’s not as resilient, or the systems and tools aren’t able to handle. Maybe the growth that you’re trying to accomplish. And so while you’re thinking about growth, especially because this day is going to be heavily weighted towards AI.

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Tiffani Bova: It’s how can technology help you be more prepared and resilient so that you can get yourself back to growth and not just looking external for reasons either why or why not? You’re going to be growing in 2025 and beyond

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Tiffani Bova: so I’d say, that’s the mindset shift, right? One. It isn’t just only external factors. The majority of it is internal, and 2 not relying on sort of old, tried and true strategies to get you out of a growth stall that might have worked in the past. We are not in the same market today.

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Julia Nimchinski: Fascinating. And what are you seeing? And I’ll take you.

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Anne Hollander: Yeah, no, I’m 100% aligned with Tiffany here. When I look at this, I’m thinking of things from the capital perspective of how are we deploying capital? How effective are we? Where is the productivity and efficiency in that capital? And to Tiffany’s point, right? This is not the same game that we’ve been playing. The cost of capital is significantly higher. The efficiency that we’ve been seeing out of the existing sales and marketing channels. Not quite there.

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Anne Hollander: We’ve hit the upper bounds of productivity in the technology that we have to help drive. This processes are beginning to shift, change and break. We’ve got a culture war even over, return to office with our people.

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Anne Hollander: inflation also driving from a macro level

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Anne Hollander: a lot of conversations around compensation and salary. So really, we’re in a world of change. And I’m very excited to chat with Tiffany today around specifically around the strategy that she’s seeing and the data that backs that up, Tiffany. I had an opportunity to go through the experience mindset. I’ve got growth, IQ on my bookshelf behind me your other book. I love what you’ve done here, and I can’t wait to talk more about this.

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Tiffani Bova: Oh, great, thank you. I can’t see the book, but I can see I’m going to guess it’s behind the the backdrop right? Yes.

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Anne Hollander: Yeah. Oh, yeah, it’s right with, like all sorts of of books. You’re in my growth section. You’re prominent right there. Number one.

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Julia Nimchinski: Amazing, and the stage is yours.

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Anne Hollander: Oh, fantastic! All right. So let’s jump into it then. So when we think about growth, right? Tiffany, you are an expert in this area. You’ve built your career around finding ways to grow. You’ve been through multiple market cycles. And you’re looking at this. You’re a big advocate for the experience. And more specifically around the experience that

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Anne Hollander: the people or the talent inside of an organization have and the customer themselves right. I see a lot of organizations who have put the customer experience at the center, but maybe have forgotten about talent. Can you tell me some about

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Anne Hollander: how you see the experience mindset changing the game and for growth. Inside of these organizations.

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Tiffani Bova: I’m just going to highlight my own sort of journey, because I think it’s like many of ours. Look back in 2,008. I was part of the team. I was at Gartner at the time. I was a research fellow there, and we made the prediction that the chief marketing officer would spend more on technology than the chief information officer. This was all the way back in 2,008,

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Tiffani Bova: and at the time the Cmo. Was not at the C-suite meaning sitting at the executive table. It was a C-level role, but it didn’t. It tended to tuck underneath the coo or under the CEO, and so they might not be at the decision-making table from a leadership standpoint.

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Tiffani Bova: especially in larger organizations. Obviously because some organizations don’t have all these C’s. But if you have a Cmo or a head of marketing, if you will, and it wasn’t so much about the technology itself. And it wasn’t about just advertising online. It was really them buying technology stacks, equipment hiring ui designers and having people who are going to do custom code and really investing in technology around one singular focus, improving the customer experience.

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Tiffani Bova: and it was really twofold. One reduce the effort of the customer, so that because of that reduction in effort and reduction in friction, the experience increases, and if that happens, you start to get improvement in net promoter scores and growth rates and recency of purchase, and all the things that others I’m sure, will talk about or have spoken about at this conference, and I stayed very focused on.

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Tiffani Bova: Put the customer at the center. Be customer centric. It’s, you know, the center, the customer, like sort of live and die on the hill of that. Always keep them as your north star, etc.

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Tiffani Bova: And then one day I was standing on stage, and I said, You know ultimately the example. At the time I was working at Salesforce, and I said, Look, it is. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Salesforce is a great place to work one of the most innovative companies in the world and the fastest growing Enterprise Software Company.

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Tiffani Bova: And I, you know, could I prove that.

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Tiffani Bova: And lo and behold, it put me on this sort of two-year journey, and what I realized was while I had written books and given keynotes, and spoken and written and advised about customer experience. I spent very little time about the interconnectedness and the impact of a good or bad employee. Experience actually had on customer experience.

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Tiffani Bova: And at the end of the 2 year research we found that those companies that do both well, not evenly. It’s not is one number one, like as customer experience 1st or as employee experience. First, st it’s an and play the coin is experience both sides of the coin. One customer, one employee. When you get that right, the flywheel of benefit that you get on both sides. Right? Employee and customer is meaningful. In some companies. It’s 1.8 times faster growth rates

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Tiffani Bova: for those that get it right? So a billion dollar brand. It’s like a 40 million dollar impact. If you’re listening to this, and you’re a 1 million dollars brand or a 2 million dollars brand

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Tiffani Bova: somewhere in between. Know that the benefit of you, getting both right will help you, not only in talent and management of that, but also in the way in which your clients engage with your brand.

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Anne Hollander: And so when you were doing this research, were you taking a look at high growth companies in particular? And then coming to this conclusion? Or were you looking at more traditional Milton Friedman, esque kind of profit is number one type of organizations. How did you structure this research.

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Tiffani Bova: Yeah. The 1st round that we did was great question, because the 1st round we did in that 1.8 x Stat came from us-based companies publicly traded, because obviously we had to get our hands on the data. So we had to know what are your growth rates across a three-year Cagr or compounded annual growth rate. Right?

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Tiffani Bova: What are the Cagr growth rates? Then? What is the net promoter? Score the glassdoor ratings like? What are they putting out about customer satisfaction employees. We had to have sort of publicly available information, hard to do in a private company, mid market, or even small, because you can’t get your hands on that. So that was that 1st sort of swath to even say, Do we have? Is there some there there like right?

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Tiffani Bova: And when we realized there was then we went on a full year study. We did it with the Edelman group. We went global. It was public and private. We really started to ask what parts and levers in employee experience had the greatest impact on customer experience. So it’s things like outdated technology.

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Tiffani Bova: broken processes, talent leaves too often. It’s disrupting, you know, the lack of vision or products. And so it was not. It was not about all things human resources.

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Tiffani Bova: It was about those moments, that matter when a customer and an employee engage in some way. So you develop this iphone. And while I’m an engineer that develops this iphone, and I am the consumer. That engineer doesn’t engage with me, but I engage with what they develop, so it doesn’t have to be in sales, marketing

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Tiffani Bova: or customer service. It’s any part of the organization which should be everything that touches, something that a client will have to engage with, and the employees being the keepers of the brand promise

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Tiffani Bova: really brought to the forefront where I started this conversation, which was internal bureaucracy, internal inertia, lack of systems and tools across 4 dimensions, people

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Tiffani Bova: process technology and culture. And I really dug into what in those 4 has the greatest impact for you to be able to improve customer experience and and obviously employee experience, because that’s the goal. But it should be that if my employees are more empowered and collaborate more, and have the systems and tools and training and career development that they want and need. They are more willing to collaborate with each other and go the extra mile for the clients right? And they’re more engaged at work. And so the products and services are better.

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Anne Hollander: Got it. So if I think about this right the the way that I would shorten this would be that the brand promise is transparent and held together by the employees of the organization and name, feeling that executing on that promise to where it is then felt and transparent to the customer themselves, right? Using again the the talent that’s around us

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Anne Hollander: using the technology that’s there in space, using all of the different processes that have been either developed or implemented to help facilitate that, to really keep that flywheel going? Do I have that about right?

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Tiffani Bova: You do, and and you know I often joke like your Powerpoint presentation and your vision and mission statement on your corporate walls. Do not show up when the client has a problem.

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Tiffani Bova: Your people do right. They don’t show up on the manufacturing floor. They don’t deliver your products. They don’t do that. It is the employees. It is important to have visions and missions and great Powerpoints, but at the end of the day a company does 2 things. They make stuff. They sell stuff I’m oversimplifying.

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Tiffani Bova: I’m oversimplifying, and a company is a collection of human beings. Now you could argue. There’s going to be some company someday that it will become a fortune. 500. That’s just AI driven. Maybe that’ll happen. We’re not talking about that right here right now. You know, 99.9 9 9 9% of companies have humans. And so it is this collaboration, if you will, or connection between those 2 things, you know, I like the word transparency, but it is also kind of the who shows up and who does the work.

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Anne Hollander: Right right? And do they do that in such a way? That is fulfilling the the mission and the vision and the brand in in a consistent type of manner. This is great. So when then, right where we find ourselves today in the middle of an AI conference, right? There are a number of folks experts brilliant minded people who are participating in this conference.

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Anne Hollander: who are thinking about AI replacing humans. What’s your perspective on this.

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Tiffani Bova: So it was many years ago when I was at Gartner. Now I’m the chief of research and strategy at an analyst firm called futurum. But it was back when I was at Gartner, and another competing analyst firm made the prediction that sort of technology was going to eliminate the need for salespeople. It was like a million salespeople were going to get eliminated because of it.

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Tiffani Bova: For anybody who’s followed my work over the 30 years of me being in tech. I am a hardcore seller at heart. And I was like, Yeah, never going to happen.

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Tiffani Bova: Does it optimize the selling function? Will it replace some of the tactical account based marketing initiatives that you could do at scale using technology, of course. But then that means, can you redirect that talent elsewhere? Now I’ll give you a couple of stats. One, you know, 10 years ago.

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Tiffani Bova: I’m I’m doing this from memory. Let’s just say, you know.

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Tiffani Bova: 26% of a seller’s time, or 28% of a seller’s time was spent on selling

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Tiffani Bova: today. The number’s like 30 or 31, according to Salesforce’s latest data sales report okay.

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Tiffani Bova: simultaneously. And or I should say at the same time, in that same tenure span, the average number of sellers that hit quota is like in the low 50% range.

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Tiffani Bova: So over the 10 years, the amount of time a seller is spending selling has not gotten t050-60-7080% of their time spent selling because technology has saved so much for them.

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Tiffani Bova: And on the flip. With all this technology, we’ve also not been able to get the quota attainment to increase. So this is my long way of answering this question is, the technology is only as good as the humans that use it and the companies that use it.

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Tiffani Bova: the sellers, the companies, the marketing organizations, the brands that win in the future

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Tiffani Bova: will use technology better than their competition full. Stop.

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Tiffani Bova: AI is a piece of it.

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Tiffani Bova: Think we’ve well, go ahead.

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Anne Hollander: I think we’ve seen this play out in a number of organizations across a number of different industries. Exactly what you’re talking about historically, when new technology comes in, it is not a net eliminator of jobs or of talent inside of an organization. Instead, what we see is an evolution of process of technology and potentially even of culture inside the organization

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Anne Hollander: to where we find a place that we’re more efficient. I’m with you with, you know, seller efficiency. In particular.

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Anne Hollander: I’ve been the person who has been breathing down a seller’s neck to get salesforce updated or to get the crm updated, or to put data in 5 different spots, so that we can all see it on whatever dashboard that we are looking at. If AI can take off some of those tasks so that they can actually get back to the job that they were hired to do fantastic.

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Tiffani Bova: Yeah, but I but I would say this, and I say this a lot.

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Tiffani Bova: The promise of AI is enticing.

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Tiffani Bova: it’s enticing. And when you see, companies use it really well. We do see deal velocity increase, revenue increase, you know. Time to closing deals, and all those things increase. Increase. That’s all goodness.

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Tiffani Bova: But the Achilles heel of an AI conversation is data.

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Tiffani Bova: And the problem. There is people have bad data data in multiple places. Siloed data, inaccurate data. Incomplete data don’t know where the data is within their own organization. Different groups use different data and different data sets. And so the data hygiene will slow brands down and companies of all sizes in their ability to maximize the power of AI, because AI has to use data

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Tiffani Bova: like, do I show up to work again using sales because it’s an easy. Everyone gets it. And do I call a hundred people today and just dial for dollars and hope for the best like hope. It’s not a strategy, right? But let’s call a hundred people.

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Tiffani Bova: or do I open my laptop in the morning and 10 leads come to me and go. Here are the 10 people to call. Here’s the offer. Here’s the white paper. Here’s the conversation you should have. Here’s the 3 suggested things that you had conversation on your last time. And this is what you said you’d follow up on, and that shows up

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Tiffani Bova: Whoa!

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Tiffani Bova: Game changer. But the only way that works is, if the data is in the system, it was captured on the call, it analyzed it, using an Llm. And AI. It pushes out the recommendations to me. I, as the salesperson, open my laptop, use the recommendations

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Tiffani Bova: and then tracking it constantly, capturing so that it’s adjusting over time.

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Tiffani Bova: That is a human system connection, so I never believe it’ll be human alone, and I never believe it’ll be technology alone. For the most part, I always believe it will be an and play. But again, those that leverage more

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Tiffani Bova: companies that use. This is an old study that I did when I was at Salesforce, but companies that used AI in the selling organization were hiring more salespeople, not less. They weren’t making their sales team smaller. They were actually growing them, because, as they became more efficient, they started selling more as they started selling. More leadership’s like, let’s keep adding heads because productivity is up. You know, the the revenue. They’re generating. Time to revenue is up. All of that is goodness. Let’s add, people.

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Tiffani Bova: not. Let’s wipe out half the sales force and just and 2 words the sales force, and then just replace it with AI, and and think that that’s going to bring in revenue.

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Anne Hollander: So what are your recommendations in terms of managing that culture change that comes along with this right? We have a process change. We have a technology change.

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Anne Hollander: but people can be a little hesitant to adopt new things. What’s your recommendation to maintain that experience and ensure that we continue to serve our customers in the way that they want to be served, while at the same time increasing that that productivity and all the pieces that go as part of that.

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Tiffani Bova: Yeah, this is where everyone seems to struggle. So my recommendation to you is grab a pod, a test pod of employees that are going to use AI in some function, legal finance, sales, marketing, customer service, whatever, and agentic AI is a game changer for customer service and customer success. But you need the data, you have to be able to maximize it.

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Tiffani Bova: That kind of behavior change from an individual contributor requires leadership to change as well. So leadership. Can’t say, did you call 100 people today like, that’s the metric I measure you by when now I have technology that tells me, just call these 10

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Tiffani Bova: metrics change kpis, change quota. Generation changes. It could be marketing right? It could be return, you know. Clicks. Is that what it is? Is it downloads it like, do the metrics have to change? But leadership has to change what they’re asking for, what they expect, and also how they behave.

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Tiffani Bova: So I would rather have a leader using the technology themselves. It was one of the biggest disconnects. I’m sorry in the study, was C-suite thought technology was working, and employees were like, Oh, yeah, especially customer facing only 20% of customer facing employees believe the technology they were given allows them to collaborate and work effectively. Only 20% customer facing

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Tiffani Bova: that means 80% are like, this is just a nightmare. Processes are broken. Tools aren’t integrated. I don’t have access to data, etc. So I would tell you that a little pop-up team is a great way to test and watch your people using the new technology or new systems and tools or processes. You’re trying to deploy before you do a big bang launch. Learn from them. And what happens? Human behavior is, hey? What are the guys over there doing?

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Tiffani Bova: What are they doing? Why are they hitting all these numbers and closing all these deals? I want to be doing what they’re doing. And as a leader you’re going. I’ve been asking you to do this for 6 months, and you haven’t been doing it. They want to see it. They want to feel it. They want to understand how it will benefit them, not being used as a tracker of every minute, of every hour of every day of what they’re doing. But instead, I really do want to make you more productive and efficient in your role and hopefully increase your satisfaction for being here.

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Anne Hollander: Yup. And when I go into organizations, typically I, I take a similar type of approach. Right? And this is the the old school crossing the chasm type of way, right where we’re looking for that 10% of people within a particular role.

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Anne Hollander: who are the innovators and early adopters right? They’re the folks who stood in line for the 1st iphone. They’re the folks who on nights and weekends will tinker with things to help make their life better using technology. They’re the folks more often than not who are going to be pushing culturally for change and improvement and evolution. And so I start with that particular group simply because they have the enthusiasm to go and do these things. Is that something that you’re talking is that aligned with what you’re talking about here?

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Tiffani Bova: Yeah, you know, I’m a huge fan of crossing the chasm, and Jeffrey Moore, he wrote the forward to my 1st book, Growth IQ. So I, of course, am a huge fan of Jeff. Personally, I would say that the mistake people make around those pop up teams is they tend to use high performers in that. Pop up team.

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Anne Hollander: Right.

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Tiffani Bova: And that’s the wrong group to use. So like, I’m a high performing seller seller, or I was when I sold in that way, and I was difficult to manage.

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Tiffani Bova: Let me just say that like I didn’t always do what I was supposed to do. But I was like, do you want me hitting numbers, or do you want me to do these 10 things right like? And leaders would be like, just go hit the numbers. So the problem with using high performers is they’re either going to give you a false positive that this new tool or new process works because they’re going to make it work regardless, or it’s not working because they’re not going to use it.

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Tiffani Bova: So I would tell you to use those performers that are much more open and willing to be like. I’ll try anything that will help me. I’m all in like train me, I will, if I don’t have to call 100 people, and 10 can come to me like, that’s what I want to do, those middle performers, and it doesn’t have anything to do with

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Tiffani Bova: quota attainment as much as it has to do with personality. And so, as a leader really looking for those that are willing right to be that early adopter, be the test case, help shape things. It tends not to be your high performers. They may act like they want to, or they may be slighted because you don’t ask them. So ask one. But do not make the entirety of that pop-up team high performers. Otherwise you’re going to find yourself again with that higher. You know the false positive either way.

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Anne Hollander: Okay, final question for me. And then, Julia, we can go to any of the audience questions that I’m sure have been popping up all over our slack so with this, let’s hypothetically say that my organization is not an experience mindset type of organization, right? We don’t necessarily have the customer or our talent? At the the forefront of what it is that we’re doing. How do we get there? How do we evolve to make that happen? And what does that process look like.

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Tiffani Bova: Yeah. The 1st thing that I always say is journey map tasks that your talent has to do. I don’t care if it’s customer success, customer service, marketing, sales, finance contracts, legal whatever it is. Literally journey map. What you’re asking your customers to do, what you’re asking your employees to do, you will very quickly find a huge gap between the 2.

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Tiffani Bova: You’re trying to drive out effort for customer, which I’ve said at the beginning of this conversation, and it lifted and shifted to the employee. So when you understand what you’re actually asking your employees to do like, I was working with a client out of Canada. It took them 22 min to do a return.

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Tiffani Bova: Okay, that’s 3 returns an hour. That’s 24 returns a day. How much joy do you think that employee has not much so? How do we make the return easy? How do we maybe even automate it and push Faqs and allow the customer to start the return on their own and let a human step in. If there’s an issue, or it’s too big of a dollar amount, or whatever the trigger is, but if you don’t know what the journey is, you can’t fix it, and I don’t mean

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Tiffani Bova: your entire sales process. But it could be getting a proposal out. It could be kicking off a marketing campaign. It could be opening and closing a ticket for customer success, pick

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Tiffani Bova: specific tasks and journey map them and look for ways which technology can help you. Today. AI may help you eventually, but you will start to find those gaps and fix those small little ankle, biters of that internal inertia, right and bureaucracy that you unintentionally have created for your people. And if you don’t think that’s happening, I always say, just binge watch undercover, boss.

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Tiffani Bova: and you will see that even great brands don’t always know what’s happening in their organization. So

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Tiffani Bova: I would start there and then you can say I’m going to create a pop-up team. And then you can say, I’m going to start looking at technology. But it requires a mindset shift of a commitment

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Tiffani Bova: to asking more questions, listening to the answers, actioning it, and then doing it again and again and again. This is a never ending journey. If you are a leader for a reason, if that’s not something you want to do, go back to being a practitioner or an individual contributor. But if you think that just sort of standing idly by and doing what you’ve done, and AI is going to fix all the ills of the past. Unfortunately, I’m sorry to say that you will be greatly disappointed.

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Anne Hollander: Yeah, no, I’m with you on on the characterization of AI, right? This is a tool. Not all tools are great for every single purpose right? It’s great to carry around a hammer up until the moment you need a screwdriver. AI is in that same kind of vein, Julia, what questions do we have coming in from the audience.

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Julia Nimchinski: We have some questions about the 80 20 rule and Tiffany, do you think that basically AI will impact low hanging fruit like the

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Julia Nimchinski: I don’t know the job of Sdrs marketers, etc, etc. Or can AI actually impact? We kind of touched on this the leadership side of things.

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Tiffani Bova: On on, how will the 80 20 rule be impacted? By AI, that’s the question. Yeah. So so I would say to you, you know the 80 20 rule is kind of this 80 20 Rule

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Tiffani Bova: people toss it around like, well, you know, it’s kind of 80, 20. But do you know your own business. Is it 50, 50, 90, 1060, 40. That’ll lead you right down that data comment. So is 80 20, really? Or are you just taking that sort of benchmark that the industry feels comfortable saying

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Tiffani Bova: and being like, you know, it works for us. Let’s just go with that. So if 20% of your customers are driving 80% of your revenue. How do you learn more about those 20% of the customers? If 20% of the leads are coming, or 80% of the leads are coming from. 20% of your lead sources. Get rid of those that aren’t ineffective. Like, if you really believe 80 20 is the case. Now, you should be making corrections based on that.

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Tiffani Bova: If you are just using the rule of thumb of 80 20, you have a huge opportunity to understand what is your split. And again, it’s overwhelming. If you try to say I’m going to do it for the whole company like.

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Tiffani Bova: pick a group, pick a division, pick a team, really learn in that smaller subset, and then you can make assumptions as you take it, larger and larger through the organization. But if you start kind of a full remit, I’m going to do everything in the company all at the same time, and I don’t care what size, organization you are. As a matter of fact, the bigger you are, the harder it is, the smaller you are, the easier it is because you don’t have to worry about all the bureaucracy and lines of business and silos in the business.

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Tiffani Bova: So I’d say that if 80 20 makes you feel comfortable. Then I would confirm that if you can, and I would execute against 80 20, if you don’t want to confirm it, at least make and get rid of the things that aren’t working in the 20%.

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Julia Nimchinski: Tiffany, and this was fantastic. How can our audience support you? The best, Tiffany? Let’s start with you.

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Tiffani Bova: Yeah, you can follow me on social media. I’m active on Linkedin. I’m active on Instagram, I’m active on XI have a podcast. Called What’s next with Tiffany Bova. And then, of course, as Anne was kind enough to mention, I have 2 books, Growth IQ. And the experience mindset.

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Anne Hollander: Right. And my last question right is all great things. Come in trilogies. What’s the next book, Tiffany?

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Tiffani Bova: Oh, I haven’t been inspired yet. I haven’t been inspired yet, so you know I’m in the thick of it, you know. Now, in my new role at Futurum. I’m having a lot of fun getting back into the business side of things, and so maybe I will get inspired to come up with a 3.rd Never know.

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Anne Hollander: Fantastic, and thank you again for showing up today. Your work has been the backbone of many of my successful initiatives across my career. Thank you again, Julia. I know we’ve got a ton of sessions, and some brilliant folks coming up so excited here next about AI led product or, excuse me product, led growth, right.