Marketing Revolution: Beyond the Quarterly Revenue Wheel

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Julia Nimchinski: Welcome to the show, Carrie Conan from 6th sense, and Emma Clayton from the Marketing Leadership Academy.

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Julia Nimchinski: How have you been

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Kerry Cunningham: William

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Emma Clayton: Hey, Julia!

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Kerry Cunningham: Doing. Great. Thank you.

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Julia Nimchinski: Yeah,

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Julia Nimchinski: All right, then. Carrie, do you want to kick things off

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Kerry Cunningham: Yeah, and I’ll kick things off by passing over to Emma for a moment and she’ll start us off, and then we’ll dive in

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Emma Clayton: Okay, super. Well, 1st of all, I just wanted to say thanks so much for having us, Julia. I’m really excited about what we’re going to be talking about in the next half an hour. Something I’m incredibly passionate about. I know Carrie is as well. You could hardly get us off the phone yesterday we were preparing for today. So just as an intro for those that don’t know me, my name’s Emma Clayton. I have spent over 25 years in marketing leadership, and what brands

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Emma Clayton: across many different sectors, many different size organizations, but always to bridge that gap between marketing and the boardroom.

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Emma Clayton: And now, I’m leading a marketing leadership Academy. That is around, how do we get more Cmos back into the boardroom space? How do we get more marketers as strategic influencers and strategic leaders managing some of those big strategic decisions that we just heard in the session before. I’m not a proponent of quarterly targets.

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Emma Clayton: And so I’m going to challenge some of that thinking today which I know Kerry alongside me is going to do. And I think what drives me most is

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Emma Clayton: just seeing lots of incredibly talented marketeers that are very, very busy in tactical execution feeling like they’re not really making a lot of progress. And so what I’m hoping today, between Kerry and myself will take a step back, really, look at strategically what we need to be doing to go better and to go forward faster.

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Emma Clayton: So that’s just a brief intro into me. And I think before I start, if I may, Kerry, I just wanted to give you a definition of what marketing is, because I think one thing we’re not very good at as marketers is defining what marketing is. So I went to the Chartered Institute of Marketing late last night and asked for their definition. And I do agree.

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Emma Clayton: It’s the management process responsible for identifying, anticipating and satisfying customer requirements

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Emma Clayton: profitably. So. Yes, there’s revenue in there. But we’ve also got to consider that we are the guys that sit closest to the market and the customers, and we always have to be listening. So that’s how I’m going to preface today over to you, Carrie.

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Kerry Cunningham: Thank you. Yeah. I love that definition. Our Cro. Latney Conant, who many know.

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Kerry Cunningham: says that Cmos ought to call themselves chief market officers, because the Cmo. Is the person who owns the market, and I think that that’s really brilliant. So I’m Kerry Cunningham just mentioned. I work at 6 cents. I’m head of research and thought leadership, which is the same job I had when I was at Forrester, and serious decisions for a long time prior to coming to 6th sense a few years ago.

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Kerry Cunningham: We do a lot of primary research. If you’re on Linkedin, you’ve probably seen posts from me about that research, I’m going to talk about some of that research and show a couple of slides just to start to set the context for why this quarterly revenue wheel that we’re on does not make sense for marketing at all. And then Emma’s gonna dive in and

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Kerry Cunningham: and talk about a methodology for lifting ourselves out of it. So I’ll get started. And by the way, I spend, as you can probably tell, but just looking at my face a million years in b 2 b myself. So if I can find that window, there we go.

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Kerry Cunningham: all right. So a couple of basics just about the b 2 b buying journey, and if you’ve seen me talk about this stuff before, please feel free to sing along, if you know the words, but the average buying process, not selling process, but buying process in b 2 b is about an 11 and a half month buying journey, and that’s on a 300 K average. Now, this is from

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Kerry Cunningham: survey work that we’ve done a couple of years in a row is from a response of 3,500. And it’s a global number. We have lots more specifics in the reports that we have on our website. You can get to easily.

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Kerry Cunningham: the really important thing to understand about your buyers is that they reach consensus about which vendor they want to buy from 70% of the way through their journey. This is like the single, most consistent finding I’ve ever seen in anything. Buyers do not make a decision at the end of their buying journey they make it about 2 thirds of the way through their buying journey. And this last 3rd of the buying journey is about validating that choice that they’ve already made.

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Kerry Cunningham: Now, this average buying process we’re talking about. They’re looking at 4 and a half. Call it 5 vendors. And there are 11 people involved in a buying journey buying group like this. That’s a lot of people trying to come to consensus about what they’re going to do.

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Kerry Cunningham: So now many of you are saying, wait a minute. I don’t have something that cost $300,000 a year. So this doesn’t apply to me. Here are the numbers starting at 10,000 to 100 k. These are us dollars per year. By the way, we have a report that’s specifically for Europe. We have one specifically for Apac as well. And here’s how long the buying cycle is

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Kerry Cunningham: so even down here in this low end, where we go, 10 to 100 k. And, by the way, in our reports we break it 10 to 50 K. And it only goes down to about a 6 month cycle. There aren’t any cycles in b 2 b that are on average under 2 quarters roughly in time. It takes a long time for folks in b 2 b. To buy stuff

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Kerry Cunningham: when you’re on the side of doing the buying. You know that in your bones, because it just takes forever to get anything done. And these days, when budgets are tight, it takes longer, because, really, honestly, who’s got more than 50 K. Sitting around in their discretionary budget where they can decide to buy something at the last minute for most buyers today, if it isn’t in your budget today, it’s going to take a pretty serious.

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Kerry Cunningham: pretty serious process to get that money, so you can see how the buying processes get longer, as the solutions become more expensive. That’s not a surprise. But the important thing to understand is that they’re never 3 months long, just about never 3 months long. We love to tell these the hero stories about that time where our sales rep got involved in that deal and got it done in a quarter. We don’t build the business off that. That’s not what it mostly looks like.

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Kerry Cunningham: Another really, really important thing to understand. Your buyers know the market when they go into market to buy something. Now, if you’re in a brand new category that didn’t exist last quarter, this is not true, but that’s not most of you. Most of you, probably 80% of you are in pretty established markets where you have established competitors, and in that case

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Kerry Cunningham: your buyers know you as well as you do, and maybe better. So they put 4 out of the 5 vendors they’re going to evaluate on the shortlist on day one. And they buy from one of these 4, 85% of the time.

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Kerry Cunningham: So once they go into market and they come to your website and become a lead that’s happening after they’ve gone into market after they’ve established 80% of their shortlist.

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Kerry Cunningham: After that happens. All right. So think about that. As we look at this. This is the way that we conceive of the buying journey.

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Kerry Cunningham: Here’s the 1st conversation. If the buying process goes from here to here, 1st conversation is going to happen around here right after they pick a favorite vendor. Here are some stages for a buying journey. You could have different stages. Call them different names. But what matters is that there’s a long process where buyers go through and figure out who they want to buy from. And then there’s a process where they validate that decision

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Kerry Cunningham: now in any given audience. And this comes from a set of 19 million records that we have that look across a whole bunch of different industries

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Kerry Cunningham: more than a thousand different b 2 b companies. And what we see is that between 60 really 60 and 70% of your audience, no matter what you are, is not in market at any given point in time, and if your buying process is 9 months long or 12 months long. They go into market today. Let’s say that you do some incredible marketing, and you cause them to go into market. They just think, oh, man, we got to buy this thing.

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Kerry Cunningham: It doesn’t mean that they’re going to buy it in the next 3 months. It means we go into market now we’ve got to find budget. We’ve got to get the buying committee together. We got to get people to agree on stuff

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Kerry Cunningham: that’s going to show up as pipeline, maybe 9 months later, and a deal a year later. Right? That’s what marketing is doing. If you do not do this well, then, you don’t get on the short list here. Then nothing happens in the next 2 or 3 quarters. Absolutely nothing. If you do a great job, so that these folks back here when they go into market.

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Kerry Cunningham: put you on the short list. You’ve got another 2 or 3 quarters before that awesome work shows up as pipeline and as revenue.

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Kerry Cunningham: That’s the reality of marketing, and I think we all know that in our bones. But and here’s I’m going to pass it over to Emma in just a moment. But here’s where we get really messed up in this quarterly measurement cycle.

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Kerry Cunningham: Everybody, including 6th sense, has this tendency to look at our our campaigns this quarter. Let’s do a retrospective on the quarter that just ended. All right. What campaigns did we run? Okay? Great, how much pipeline did we produce. Okay? Great. Well, that was a good campaign or not. A good campaign.

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Kerry Cunningham: No, the pipeline you produced this quarter came from the campaign that you ran 2 quarters ago. Now you got leads from this one that ended up being part of that deal that closed because those people were ready to identify themselves after having been in market for 9 months already evaluating you. Right? So the work that you did 2 or 3 quarters ago is the work that you need to be looking at when you’re evaluating. Why did we hit our pipeline number or not this quarter?

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Kerry Cunningham: Now, again, I think that’s something everybody kind of knows. But we get so caught up in this quarterly rat race that we forget that. And we need to stop forgetting that and to help us stop forgetting that and get onto a more sensible way of doing things. I would like to pass it over to Emma now. And, Emma, do you want me to keep sharing. You want me to to put it down for a second

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Emma Clayton: If yeah, no, if you can, that would be really super. Yeah, thank you. So yeah, I mean, look, everything that you said. There, I think, is is really valid, and the thing that I’m really interested in. And and I was explaining this to you as well last night, Kerry is that we forget sometimes that our customers are humans. And what goes on in that buying process.

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Emma Clayton: There’s a whole heap of psychology that layers over all of that framework and that research that Carrie’s just shared. You know what’s going on in the psyche of somebody who’s making that decision. They might be leading the procurement. Somebody else might be making a decision

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Emma Clayton: could be based on proximity bias of someone else that’s got another tool or system or software platform. It could be that again, there’s this risk, aversion and loss aversion, as they call it, that the choices that somebody makes are not always about the greatest feature. It’s about the least risk. So again, we need to position around, you know, when we are putting our marketing materials together and even our sales materials together. And remember it’s buyer enablement, not sales enablement.

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Emma Clayton: How can we hit the emotions, values, and beliefs that are going on for them with their ego? Not just necessarily anything else, because

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Emma Clayton: I know for a fact, when I’ve been doing procurement, you can’t help but think if I get this wrong.

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Emma Clayton: this is my job on the line. This is my reputation and my credibility on the line. So I’m actually gonna move away from anything that is risky. I’m gonna go for the safe option. So how can we wrap them up with trust and value that really takes away and minimizes that loss aversion and moves them into something that’s more transformational. So so just adding to what you said, there, Carrie.

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Kerry Cunningham: Yeah, it’s. And and that’s huge. Because when you think about those words that you’re using, you know the trust, how can they learn to trust you and those kinds of things. So 1st of all, I want to underscore.

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Kerry Cunningham: that’s absolutely true. And there’s a lot of research out there that talks about what, what buying groups go through when they’re in a buying process. It is not just that that primary buyer, persona that you know and love, that you built all your marketing for who get so excited about you that they run through a buying process and buy you. They would love to do that you would love to do that when you’re going out to buy something. But you know very well what Emma said is true, that

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Kerry Cunningham: there are other people involved in your organization. If you’re so, you know, we sell something for marketers. We have really cool, great marketing. We have great brand, does the it person does the Cfo. Does the purchasing person care about that at all?

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Kerry Cunningham: No, not really right. What they want to know is, is it going to fit? Is it going to cost too much? Is it going to do all this right, all of these other things that involve?

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Kerry Cunningham: What am I was talking about being a trusted source. Are they reliable? Am I taking a risky decision if I buy them? Or is that a safe decision? If I go with them?

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Kerry Cunningham: And as a group, you’re always going to make a safer decision than what the individual person would have made themselves. So when you think about what marketing’s job is. And you think about that year-long buying process? Can you build trust with a campaign that you run this quarter?

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Kerry Cunningham: Right? Are you going to build trust in in the people who are going to make decisions about putting you on the short list with a campaign that you build this quarter. I don’t think so. You know. Trust is something that gets earned over time, right? That you develop, not even just from what you’re marketing, but also from how you show up in the place. So I think.

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Kerry Cunningham: you know, that’s 1 of the key reasons that we cannot have just this one quarter at a time view of things, because the job that we have to do it takes much longer than that

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Emma Clayton: Yeah, it does definitely. And even if you just think about when you’re making a decision yourself, that’s high value, you know, you want to make sure you’re consultative. You know there are some people that are impulsive. But again, it’s really slowed down when you know all eyes are on you, and you. You’re scared of stuffing it up, especially if you’re changing and transitioning into something that’s a new provider.

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Emma Clayton: So one of the things that I just wanted to take a step back from the hamster wheel and the rat race. And there’s a rodent theme going on in this talk, isn’t there?

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Emma Clayton: But it’s just to present this framework that I work on a lot with my clients to get them to regroup, because what we tend to do as marketeers is, just get stuff done. And so we’re on this complete hamster wheel of activity, trying to get the next customer in the door. Under this pressure for these short term data metrics. And, as Kerry said, you know, marketing shouldn’t really be measured on those, because it takes a long period of time for anybody to know, like and trust us.

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Emma Clayton: So what I always say is, we’ve got to take a step back. Actually, it’s a bit like pulling the arrow back. So what we do is we keep firing the arrows. But, you know, let’s take some time and step back. Let’s get into market. Let’s, in fact, actually, before that we start with this house where

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Emma Clayton: we have to understand exactly what we’re trying to do as a company. How are we going to make these decisions? What is the purpose, the mission, the values. And I’m not going to labor any more than that. But you know, as we just heard in the previous talk like, get connected with your CEO like, what are they trying to achieve? And when you’ve got that, then we go down a level and we say, okay, strategically, what are the bets that we’re going to place that we need to do to drive

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Emma Clayton: this forward, this strategic direction. And often it’s not something that, as Carrie said, is going to happen in the next few months, no decisions are made, executed and delivered upon

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Emma Clayton: in that time, but what we have to do is think, okay, well, we have to go into market, and we have to orient ourselves and understand this market reality and ask ourselves, Well.

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Emma Clayton: why are we here? What are our challenges? What are we trying to be? Who are we trying to target? Because I’ve been in lots of different organizations where you hear? Well, we’re for everybody. Well, if you’re for everybody, you’re really for nobody. So we have to get super laser clear on what we’re trying to

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Emma Clayton: build what we’re trying to achieve and get these real deep market and customer insights, because that’s our job as a marketer nobody else is tasked or able to do that. That’s our job. And so we have to be able to understand exactly what that market is telling us, whether it’s the customer, the competitors, innovation. AI adoption, whatever it might be.

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Emma Clayton: And then look at how we can bring that into the strategic bets that we need to deliver, and that’s where we then get stuck on this pipeline trap of well, let’s just go. We know that this is happening, and these competitors are doing this. And this customer said this and so much activity. But actually, what we need to do is take some time to sit and breathe and say, Well, actually, what is the impact over the activity that we need to deliver instead of vanity metrics.

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Emma Clayton: What is the value? What are the revenue models we’re trying to achieve? What is the market positioning.

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Emma Clayton: And how can we kill all of the low impact tactics that we’re currently delivering? So it’s about saying no to as much stuff as what you’re saying yes to, and then our job as marketeers is to go out and sell this into the business, and so many of us as marketers are sitting in our silos and being sort of bashed for these revenue quarters. But if we can go out and talk at this strategic level, we’ll be able to get some consensus and some agreement about what the key

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Emma Clayton: factors are that we need to be delivering in our in our tactics, which is then where we get off the hamster wheel, we stop driving all this crazy activity. And we do the things that really laser focused into less tactics way, more value because we’ve done the homework. We’ve pulled the Arrow back. We’ve understood what we’re trying to do, so we can shoot forward.

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Emma Clayton: And so I believe that we’ve got to stop fixating on Mqls and instead focus on audience engagement, high intent signals. Understanding that stakeholder matrix understanding how buyers behave understanding this buyer journey that Kerry’s been researching really thoroughly. And you know.

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Emma Clayton: inexhaustively, this stuff changes a lot. So I love your work, Harry, big Fan, big big fan.

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Emma Clayton: And so I think that that’s where we need to get off the hamster wheel. But we have to do a job of educating those around us. And Carrie. I’m going to bring you in here because we had a really good chat yesterday about why? Why is marketing tasked? Why are we all working on these quarterly targets, and it comes from something that actually isn’t even marketing related. It comes from from board sort of setting those priorities. But how can we push back really

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Kerry Cunningham: No, I mean, it’s you know. I think one of the big challenges there is. It’s very hard to say when the board, when the CEO when the Cfo. Comes to you as a marketer, and says, Hey, our pipeline, this quarter is not looking great. What can you do to change that now, or our revenue, for that matter, isn’t looking great. What can you do to change that?

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Kerry Cunningham: It’s very uncomfortable and unpleasant to say.

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Kerry Cunningham: You know that was 2 quarters ago’s problem for me that there isn’t anything I can do. So when that’s just really hard and nobody wants to do that. Nobody wants to say that everybody wants to be able to say, Yes, I’m a revenue marketer. I produce revenue.

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Kerry Cunningham: and the truth is, you do, and you have to be. But that happens over this timeframe that we’re talking about, and that timeframe is difficult to see and difficult to measure. It just is right now, and that’s 1 of the great promises of AI. I think within a year or so we’re going to have some really different options for seeing what’s the what’s the time lag impact of what I do this quarter.

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Kerry Cunningham: If I if I’m producing this kind of engagement, this quarter, what’s that going to look like in pipeline 2 quarters from now. That’s the question we need to be asking and answering, and it’s it’s tough right now. It’s tough to do

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Emma Clayton: Yeah. And I think also, you know, we get very obsessed with revenue and volume. But actually, it’s around revenue efficiency as well, isn’t it. And also, in fact, I know you’ve been doing some research as well around the spend of performance marketing versus brand marketing. And actually, what I can predict is that everything’s going to get very, very beige very soon. And so the uplift and uptick into brand investment will come as we try to come away from everything that’s sort of AI generated content.

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Emma Clayton: And how can we measure that through brand salience, brand trust, market authority, market share just as much as the funnel pipeline metrics

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Kerry Cunningham: Yeah. And as we rethink those funnel pipeline metrics, I think one of the things that we’re going to have to be rethinking is one. Let’s let’s make sure that we know exactly what our Icp is. We measure the whole thing right? We understand who we’re trying to sell, to.

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Kerry Cunningham: how many selling opportunities are there in that audience. And then how many actually arise? So what we saw in the data I showed earlier is vast majority of companies not in market. Maybe 2025% are in market looking around. And 2 to 5% are going to buy something in this quarter.

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Kerry Cunningham: So of those 2025% that are in market, and, you know, actually, legitimately, shopping and looking at solutions. Are you getting engagement there, or are you missing. Are they just not engaging with you at all? Because and you can see that 9 months before it’s going to become revenue right? If you’ve got a bunch of accounts. And you look at the intent data. The intent data says these guys are in market, but they’re not on our website and engaging in a way that that is meaningful.

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Kerry Cunningham: Then you have probably lost that deal already, and you’re going to have to fight like hell to get it, or at least get involved in it. Because if you’re not on that day one shortlist, you’ve got at most a 15% chance of winning that deal

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Kerry Cunningham: right? So that’s you know, that is what marketing I mean, those things are measurable. Right? This is we’re not talking about, hey? We’re just, you know, we’re gonna we’re gonna get better at Brand, and then things will just be better. And just trust me on that. That’s not what we’re saying. What we’re saying is, no, we want to measure everything right. And this and AI is going to allow us to measure everything much more than we can do today.

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Kerry Cunningham: And when we can do that and see exactly who’s in market and and whether we’re getting them engaged. That’s what marketing needs to sign up to do

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Emma Clayton: Yeah, I think so. And I think also,

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Emma Clayton: what we can’t end up going is down the the rabbit hole. It’s another another rodent for us, that down the rabbit hole of AI is everything, because actually, we forget sometimes that

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Emma Clayton: marketing is human to human, and that goes out into the market into the customers, and really keeping an eye on those human relationships and insights just as much as how AI can fast track that. But I think also one of the things that we forget. And I see a lot of this at the moment, which is why I think a lot of the Cmo, Cmo, roles are

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Emma Clayton: 30% less than they were last year is that we’re forgetting to educate back into the business what our role is. And that’s why, I think we’re becoming these lead gen roles rather than this real strategic role that we’ve always been up until the last few years. So

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Emma Clayton: I think that gives us a real, strong chance of being able to speed up that process and understand it, so that there’s greater success. So we don’t need the numbers in the funnel. We just need the quality, and we can close those down and invest more time and get closer to those customers.

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Kerry Cunningham: You know, one of the just an example of what you’re talking about with bringing the human element

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Kerry Cunningham: even today with what we know today, but especially when we have AI tools really embedded in everything we’re going to be able to. And AI is going to suggest or just execute things that will cause an immediate result that looks like it’s a good result. And that may be we can run a campaign. AI has identified how to do it and can do it. That’s going to get more people to come to our website and fill in a form

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Kerry Cunningham: right? And that’s going to look like success right now, while you’re alienating the crap out of all of the people in your Icp right

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Kerry Cunningham: where the where the marketer needs to be smart, here is looking at that and saying, yes, that could produce a short term bump in a metric that we’re looking at, and it’s a bad idea, and we shouldn’t do it, and I think marketers are in a great position to understand that it’s a question now of. Are we going to be empowered to do it?

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Emma Clayton: Yeah, I agree. And I think that’s the thing as well being empowered because there’s a lot of marketers, senior marketers that have been left out of some of those decisions because we focused solely on this lead Gen. Pipeline, tactical and actually, even just in this box in the house. You can see that there’s 4 p’s in the tactical mix. We’re really heavily focused on promotion, which, when you think you know, you’ve got 100% of marketing is across those 4 pillars. And then again into, you know, one of those quarters is another quarter. That’s like

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Emma Clayton: 8, 10% of marketing that we’re doing. And so if we can just lift up from that, we’re going to have way, more credibility, and we’ll be at those that you know, in those rooms when the decisions are being made. And so I definitely think that we have to work on that just as much as those marketing and technology and AI skills. We’ve got to still work really hard on on having our credibility and gravitas

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Kerry Cunningham: No.

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Kerry Cunningham: and that’s the only way to do that is is over time. It simply takes time. And if you don’t have a brand today. If you’re a very small brand in your space.

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Kerry Cunningham: there’s not an immediate fix to that. There’s a lot of work and hustle you can do to get yourself involved in a relatively small number of deals right? And you can grow a business from nothing that way. You cannot scale it to something that way, and that’s the thing that we all have to come to terms with. As our companies change over time.

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Emma Clayton: So where do you see the future of this? So where’s your research taking you now, Kerry? Because this is so insightful. But what’s the next step

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Kerry Cunningham: Yeah. So we’re looking at where budgets are being spent.

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Kerry Cunningham: generally right? And so we’ve got some research coming out on that just momentarily. And then also, how is marketing investing in AI. And you know, surprisingly, I can. I can just speak to a couple of the points just a little over half of marketers have specifically budgeted for AI based tools in

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Kerry Cunningham: 2025

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Emma Clayton: I thought it was more than that

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Kerry Cunningham: Yeah, I would have thought so too. And surprisingly, the numbers within tech are actually lower than that. Now, I think part of the reason that it looks that low. Is that we asked, are you? Are you budgeting specifically for AI? I think a lot of a lot of people everywhere. Just expect now that AI is going to be embedded in what they’re already buying.

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Kerry Cunningham: and also, by the way, that they’re going to get it for free, and I don’t think that expectation is something everybody ought to hang on to. So when your providers are embedding sophisticated AI tools into the solutions that you already pay for.

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Kerry Cunningham: Yes, you may get some of those things for free, but they’re not free for the provider to produce, and certainly on a runtime basis. They’re not going to be free. So don’t expect that those things are going to be free, and you better expect to put some budget. And I think that’s part of the message coming out of this research is, I think you better expect to budget for this additional capability. This isn’t.

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Kerry Cunningham: It’s they’re not going to be gifted to us all

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Emma Clayton: And do you think it’s in the marketeers hands to drive this adoption as well? We heard that just as we entered into our session from the from the session before. Do you believe it’s the markete’s role to to drive that

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Kerry Cunningham: Yeah, 100%. And so one of the things I think we ought to be careful not to lose sight of is, you know. So we’re very excited when we talk about AI. We almost exclusively now mean generative AI and large language models, but the most, the most mature, most, I think, useful uses of AI in marketing today.

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Kerry Cunningham: or what we used to call predictive analytics, identifying your Icp and then identifying which buyers are in market. And then, 3, rd understanding what’s working and what’s not.

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Kerry Cunningham: Approximately, all marketers are guessing about what works to attract and engage their buyers. I mean, if we’re honest, most of us.

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Kerry Cunningham: It’s a finger in the wind. Maybe that worked I don’t know, and we certainly don’t know the time lag. So that’s an immediate place where AI can help. It’s also where we saw in this survey, we just did the least investment by marketers so far

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Kerry Cunningham: is in those particular areas. So I want to be very, very careful that we don’t overlook the ready to hand solutions that are mature and that can move the business forward because we’re trying to figure out how to produce more blog posts for nothing

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Emma Clayton: Yeah.

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Julia Nimchinski: Gary. Emma, thank you so much. Love learning learning from you today. If our folks want to support you, continue learning, where should they go, Emma, let’s start with you.

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Emma Clayton: So I hang out a lot on Linkedin, and I’ve just started writing on substack. I’ve just found a new love of writing, and so they can find me on substack, which is marketing case files, or Linkedin. Emma Clayton

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Kerry Cunningham: I’ve just. I’ve just started reading Emma’s stuff really awesome. So do that. And I’m on Linkedin a lot, too. There’s not that many Carrie Cunningham. So if you look for me, you’ll find me on Linkedin, and I post every day, mostly about research.

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Kerry Cunningham: so please do find me, and then 6 cents.com backslash research will get you to all of the research that we produce no forms.

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Kerry Cunningham: So you don’t have to worry about that

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Julia Nimchinski: Thanks! Again.

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Emma Clayton: Having us, Julia

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Kerry Cunningham: Yeah. Thanks.