CRO to CRA: From Chief Revenue Officer to Chief Revenue Architect — CRO Roundtable

Julia Nimchinski:
Seth Morris, Chief Strategy Officer at Sendler, leads this discussion from CRO to CRA as Chief Revenue Architect. Welcome to the show, Seth. What’s the latest and greatest?

Seth Marrs:
I mean, I’m looking forward to digging into it with this group. Yeah, lots of changes, lots of things happening, so this is a really prescient topic, so looking forward to it.

Julia Nimchinski:
Let’s do it. Can’t wait.

Seth Marrs:
All right, so welcome all. I’m… I’m gonna, I’m gonna just jump in, like, the, the overall narrative with AI is kind of what made this really compelling to me. It’s everything seems to be focused on death. Death of sales, death of marketing, death of customer success, and the thing that, when these things happen, they always seem to focus on, or they don’t talk about the ability for the people in these jobs to evolve, and there are a huge amount of smart people in go-to-market that are working in this space, and it gives me a lot of confidence that… Well, I think the way that sales, marketing, customer success works today is going to die, I think it’s going to reemerge into a new and better format, and I think the move from a chief revenue officer, the discussion around Chief Revenue Officer moving to a Chief Revenue Architect is a really good foundation to get us started into this, so… really fortunate to have a great group of CROs to discuss this today, and I think the best way to start is to do introductions. I’ll start out with, with Marilee, do you want to… you want to get us started? What I’d say is just tell us a little bit about yourself, your company, and kind of what makes you optimistic about the future.

Marilee Bear:
Sure, sure. Hi everybody, I’m Marilee Baer, I am Chief Revenue Officer of Gainsight, and Gainsight is a customer retention platform. focused on helping companies retain and grow the revenue that they’ve already won, and we’re doing that by harmonizing both the software play, the digital play, and agents. So, humans, agents, and digital all working together as the operating layer for retention. When I think about what makes me optimistic these days, I am thinking through all of the evolution and growth that’s coming with AI today. It’s coming at this dramatically fast pace. And I think about, you know, in future generations to come, how this will impact them, hopefully, you know, in a world that feels a little heavy today, hopefully for the greater good of humankind, and make people’s lives richer, more higher quality, and hopefully more peaceful as well.

Seth Marrs:
Fantastic, fantastic. Shane, do you want to go next?

Shane Evans:
You bet. Thanks, Seth. Hey, everyone. Shane Evans, Chief Revenue Architect at Gong. Great to be with all of you today, and Riff for a moment. There’s no shortage of change and challenges that we’re all facing right now, so it’s great to come together with a peer group like this one and trade different ideas and learnings and obstacles that we’re dealing with on a daily basis. I’ve been at Gong now for almost 3 years. Been an amazing ride. We are building the AI revenue operating system for revenue professionals. And what we’re trying to get to is a much cleaner, less mundane way of getting work done. And what’s been interesting is this evolution from what has been a legacy playbook, where in the past we had to manage people and pipeline and quotas and territories an opportunity to do a lot more with both augmentation and automation. And as I was looking back on the last few years of what I’ve been on, the journey I’ve been on, and as I watch others I had this visual, I had a mentor, good friend, previous company, he showed up to help us out, walked in with his 4-inch, 3-ring binder, super impressive set of playbook, that he had acquired over his years and decades of work. really talented individual. Unfortunately, that playbook no longer works, and that approach and that operating rhythm is not gonna fly, when things are changing so quickly. As soon as you print those plays and put them in your fancy book, they’re already outdated, and so our work now is becoming much more about how systems work. how customers want to get educated and learn about how we can help them. And so, the change of pace that we have to adhere to is very different today, much more about systems and getting into the design world than it is about the operating cadence. And so, it’s forcing all of us to build new skills. Get some new experience, which is a fun journey for us all to go on together.

Seth Marrs:
Yeah, fantastic. Thanks, Shane. James, why don’t you go next?

James Roth:
Sure. Hey, Seth, thanks for… thanks for having me on. It’s great to see some familiar faces. It’s good to see Hannah, Marilee, certainly done a lot of work together. Shane, you as well. Sangeeta, nice to meet you. I don’t think we’ve met before. But, yeah, I’m James Roth, I’m the CRO at, ZoomInfo. Zoominfo is the go-to-market intelligence layer, so we’re primarily known for being the biggest go-to-market data provider out there. I think what makes me optimistic is in this transition from, you know, heavy applications, everybody has their application that they’re selling. you know, I think there’s a new world of go-to-market use cases that all require not only really great first-party data, you know, companies like Gong doing an amazing job on the first-party side, then you’ve got a ZoomInfo, which is primarily third-party, but then bringing those things together, really kind of completing the context graph to have the true understanding of everything that’s happening within your first-party data systems, whether that’s conversational intelligence, email, Marketo, CRM, and then marrying that with a rich third-party, you know, signal ecosystem, context database, it’s cool to watch, and I think one of the things You know, where I get more optimistic is the ability… one of the things that was always challenging for us is if you put a bunch of data behind an application, you rely on that individual being good at using the application to pull all of the right data out at the right time. And I think now, with whether it’s, you know, some of the LLMs, or just companies building incredible things. to leverage either something internally or something externally, you know, the ability to consume that context or some of that information is like it’s never been before, and so I think there’s… unbelievable use cases coming out outside of the normal go-to-market use cases, to Shane’s point, you know, whether it’s territory, TAM analysis, forecasting, like, all of the major things that we as CROs think about on a regular basis. There are so many interesting use cases coming out that would have taken months, if not quarters, if not years, to build internally that are now just a lot easier to build. And so, despite all the noise that, you know, we’re all gonna be riding rascal scooters, watching our iPads, you know, getting… you know, universal basic income, because AI’s going to take every job. I think it’s opening up a lot of really cool and unique opportunities that are pretty exciting. I think so long as you have the fortitude to, you know, especially in a public company, last whatever the heck is happening in public markets, I think there’s a very bright future.

Seth Marrs:
Yeah, totally agree. Sengeito, you want to go next?

Sangeeta:
Yeah, happy to. Great to be here. I think… so, first of all, quick introduction. I’m Sangeeta, I’m the Chief Revenue Officer at Amagi. And in case you haven’t heard about Amagi, we are the platform for the media and entertainment industry. So all of the broadcasts and streaming TV that you might be watching, the Super Bowl, the Olympics, all of it is played out, and a lot of the back-end work is on our platform. And it’s… it’s just a fascinating place to be right now, because the media industry is a microcosm of disruption, and you look outside, and you see the wider industry, sort of the ecosystem going through this as well. What makes me optimistic, I would say, I think, two things. One is what I’m echoing what others have said, which is the pace of change, and every time the pace of change is accelerated, people predicted doom and death, and every time, humans just rose to the challenge. In ways that nobody imagined before, so I have a lot of excitement because of that. You know, it’s great to see where we take it. And secondly, I think it’s a lot of our barricades, like the excuses that we used to have, where I don’t have the data, nobody put this report for me, well, those days are gone, right? We can each gond for ourselves, and that just opens up so much more possibilities.

Seth Marrs:
Absolutely. Hannah, finish off. Thanks for.

Hannah Willson:
Thanks for having us. It’s great to see all of you. Like James said, so many partners here, and CROs I look up to, and excited to learn from all of you. I’m Hannah Wilson, I’m the CRO of Nooks. As some of you might know, Nooks is an AI-native comprehensive platform for building top of funnel. So, everything from doing sophisticated AI-based account research, to calling, to emailing, to coaching. And yeah, I think what makes me most excited is, I mean, this is just a moment in time where our whole profession is getting elevated. The impact that we’re gonna have, the impact that our sellers are gonna have, is just gonna be 10x what it is today, and I think just really cool to see, sort of, the evolution of our profession and taking it to the next level, and I think, most of all, just the revenue impact that we’re gonna have. I think we’re gonna be able to, if we do this right, and we use these… this next generation of technology effectively, we’ll be able to generate significantly more revenue for the companies that we work for than we’ve ever been able to do in the past. So, yeah, really, really looking forward to this conversation. Thanks for having me.

Seth Marrs:
Yeah, same. All right, so let’s jump into things. The first question that I have for you is just really around what is the CRO role of the future going to be? And Shane, I’ll have you go first, because you’ve taken the bold stance of even changing the title of that, but you had a very unique perspective on it, and a very good reason why. So why don’t you start us off?

Shane Evans:
Yeah, you bet. There’s been a lot of great discussion over the past few weeks since we made this official, and one of the main questions I’ve been asked is, like, where did this come from? And what happened was, we stepped back and looked at how we were driving growth across the business, and I realized that we had to strip everything down and completely reset. The stuff that was being done previously was no longer working the way that it once had, and you couldn’t just throw more bodies at the problem. Or generate more leads and think you were gonna efficiently operate your way out of it. And so, we had to do a full reset, and take a look at areas of the business, top to bottom, that we could drive more efficiency into. And then, over the past 12 months, it’s become evident that we’re gonna have to operate in a world where there’s more automation, there’s more agents, and so it’s no longer just about managing people. It’s about how do you make the whole ecosystem work in harmony with one another, and we’ve even gone so far as to create certification internally for our team members. You know, I’m a parent of four kids. I’ve been very frustrated as a parent watching my kids get, pulled into different offices and talk about, you know, cheating or not following the rules. And yet at work, I’m, you know, challenging everyone to use AI in everything that they do. It’s evident that the workforce that is coming in is not yet equipped or prepared to operate in that fashion, and so another area that we’re going to have to really focus heavily on is how do we deliver those skills, how do we help revenue professionals build the mindset, the approach, the skills that are needed to win in this new economy that we’re in. And I love what James said earlier, like, it’s an exciting time if you embrace it. There’s no need to be scared or trepid as we go into that. So, great opportunities in front of all of us, for sure.

Seth Marrs:
Yeah, I mean, it’s so true, like, my daughter’s graduating college, and she has the view of… and it’s been… it’s been beat into her that AI is negative, don’t use it, and she’s gonna go right into a world where she’s gonna be expected to use it, expected to be good at it, so it’s kind of… it’s kind of crazy. James, how about… how about you? Is a Chief Revenue Architect role in your future?

James Roth:
I mean, I love it. I think it’s great. You know, on that point, just a funny aside, we had a dinner last night, and there was somebody there whose significant other was a teacher. First question I asked is, how are you policing that? And he was incredibly aggressive against them using it, and I said, yeah, but at the same token, aren’t they gonna, like, they’re gonna have to be good at using it. Every mechanism you have to catch them using it and writing a paper. they can just train, because he’s like, oh, they use words that they wouldn’t have used before. I was like, well, if they plug in a bunch of their old papers, they could make it look exactly like they wrote it. And he’s like, oh, and he went into this diatribe that was unbelievably negative. And I was like, you’re doing them a disservice. And so…

Seth Marrs:
story.

James Roth:
it’s not lost on me that that’s probably a very hard situation that they’re in. I think back to when I was in college, and we still tried to find a bunch of workarounds to make life a little bit easier, and we didn’t even have that, but, you know, I think from an org standpoint, I love the Chief Revenue Architect idea, and I think To the theme that’s gonna probably run throughout this paradigm shift, and we all know the type. you know, I think there was an opportunity for the CRO to basically just be a grown-up graduate salesperson. And in great times, in great product-market fit, you could do the, we joke internally, the PUBA CRO, where you travel all day Monday, you have one on-site meeting on Tuesday, then you travel on the chairman’s flight back Wednesday, and then Thursday’s an admin day, and then Friday you golf. there was a period of time, and we all probably could throw a few names out where we knew that type, and I think, you know, the expectation, or what we are going to be tasked with, what we are tasked with going forward, is an operational rigor, understanding the business, understanding the processes, because if you’re going to… maximize the, you know, and you bring up efficiency versus effectiveness. If you’re to even have a chance at optimizing for either of those, you have to have a deep understanding of every single process, across every single workflow, across anything that you can optimize. And if you are just that… you know, hired sales gun that’s got a CRO title, you’re probably not going to be as effective, and so… you know, I think the title shift is one thing, and you’re seeing this emerging go-to-market engineer, and, you know, the architect, and that is, I think, an important change, so long as that change is real. And, you know, folks, you know, to Shane’s point, where it’s like, you are basically breaking everything down. You know, you can’t do that if you are the traditional, just, sales leader, good at a rah-rah locker room speech, and good in front of an enterprise client. And so I think it’s more about the actual work that the individual is doing, versus if that, you know, grand poobah just changes their title, you know, you’re probably not going to have the desired outcome. And so I think there is, like, a broader reckoning in terms of what that org looks like, and, you know, I love the concept, and Shane brought it up earlier, you know, org charts are gonna be completely different than they were before. In the org chart, you’re gonna have humans and you’re gonna have agents, and I think The ability to build that org chart out, but then more importantly, be maniacal in the different systems where you can actually put agents into that that org chart. You have to be more of an architect than the traditional pound the table and ask for closed deals.

Seth Marrs:
I mean, basically what you’re saying is you have to evolve to the technology and the things you need to do in today’s environment. It’s more of a, you need to be willing to… just not titles, kind of a metaphor to a certain extent, but you need to be able to change with the title to what you’re doing today. Exactly. What’s available to you today? Got it, got it. Singhita. What’s your vision?

Sangeeta:
So, I, so first of all, I love the title experimentation. I love the idea, Shane. I’m still, you know, thinking about the same problem. been for a while, actually. So coming back to some of the stereotypes that we’ve held tied to this role, one has been, it’s traditionally been an arithmetic problem that most people solve, right? It’s… Looking at the territory, looking at the number of counts, how many people, what’s the pipeline coverage, back into quotas. And for a long time, that has worked, and clearly it hasn’t been the sole job for… now, for the past few years. So the question is, what is the job? And, based on some of my experience, I was at Miro before, what I really learned is that companies that think about go-to-market like a product organization, and the CRO thinks like a product manager of a product, really, and how does this differ from what normally we’ve been looking at from a go-to-market system? is it’s iterative, it thinks about the end customer value, it knows that you have to do experimentation before you scale, and you’re constantly learning by input from your customer base. And I think that’s been where the go-to-market function has begun to evolve, and now with AI, it’s even more squarely moving into that. Because it’s given us the ability to experiment far more faster. It’s given us the ability to create an environment of psychological safety where you can say, I’m just gonna test this message. I’m going to test this play before I go and give it to every one of my sales reps. So I think our job is going to be much more similar to building products. Because we have to start thinking about that end customer in mind, and this arithmetic that is similar to the playbooks just are not going to last. Anything you’re building for this year is already outdated for next year, so what’s the next version of this product that we’re building?

Seth Marrs:
So, I mean, am I hearing that right? It’s almost sales is co-creating product with Product… the product team and the customer.

Sangeeta:
No, I meant the go-to-market function has to look like a product organization, where you have hypothesis about the value that you’re creating, you’re testing that with the customers, you’re seeing, does the message land? Are these the ICPs? Whereas in the past, we had that sort of handed to us, right? We were given a.

Seth Marrs:
Yeah, yeah.

Sangeeta:
set of things I had to go after, and then we did arithmetic on what does it need to go get the right coverage, the right investment, number of people, what the scores look like. It was an arithmetic problem, a math problem, largely. But now, given the pace of change, we have to become architects of what the go-to-market function has to be, and that function needs to look more like a product building function, which is very quickly iterating and learning what does the next level of innovation look like within the year.

Seth Marrs:
So, innovating within the structure of how you’re use… how you’re doing go-to-market.

Sangeeta:
Yes.

Seth Marrs:
Got it. Okay. Hannah.

Hannah Willson:
Yeah, I love that concept. I feel like that’s definitely the way of the future. I think about a lot of the same things, and it almost seems like the CRO role is going to expand over time, because right now, I mean, we already have agents working on a lot of, you know, prospecting and, you know, customer expansion and deal execution, but over time, you know, you’re going to have agents working through some of your marketing campaigns, some of you might already be doing this, product releases. And I think the role of the CRO becomes, how do you orchestrate all of that to drive revenue? So it’s not just so siloed in the functions we’ve always thought of, but it’s much more broader, and yeah, totally agree that, like, product manager mindset is going to become, yeah, much more important moving forward.

Seth Marrs:
Got it, got it. Makes sense. Merlee.

Marilee Bear:
Yeah, yeah, I like the concept of the, Chief Revenue Architect, for sure. I’m still a little unclear. Shane, does that mean that you still own the number? I believe so.

Seth Marrs:
But…

Shane Evans:
I still, I still own the number.

Marilee Bear:
We still own the number. Okay, great. Yeah, because that clarity, I mean, at the end of the day, we still own the outcome as the revenue leader. But just to tag off of what Sangeeta said, you know, as you think about becoming, like, a product organization in a way, and that, you know, metaphor of go-to-market being, like, a product organization, like one who’s using vibe coding, certainly. Not in the old dev cycles. Everything is changing so quickly. I think back to how it used to be when we would all do our upfront annual planning, and you kind of, in a way, set it and forget it, you know? Maybe you revisit it at the half of the year to see what’s working and not, and iterate, but that iteration is constant now, and it really requires a lot of agility. I think it requires a leader who is not stuck in that whining, dining, and golfing, you know, sort of thought of, like, what the CROCRA role is. but one who’s really down into the weeds and understanding what is available right now, how can I continue to iterate, how can I continue to make my team more efficient and productive. And that means that you’re making a lot of swaps and changes. You know, you’re thinking about, alright, I used to do it this way, what if we vibe-coded it, and we could do it a little bit differently? We’ve done that in our organization with a couple of different, you know, apps now that are helping our teams with productivity, and these are things that we’d never even considered before. So, I think it’s just… it comes down to that curiosity and the growth mindset, and a willingness to really never rest, in a way. I mean, I’ve been the one who’s been a huge proponent of, like, taking time and resting and recharging, and I see it now, I see the power in that, but also, at the end of the day. You really can’t rest on your laurels. You really have to stay on your toes and think through. How do I continue to make the team better? Through everything that we have with technology today.

Seth Marrs:
Got it, got it. So, I mean, what I’m hearing from you guys, it’s… this role is not getting easier with AI, it’s getting way more dynamic, and way more challenging, to a certain extent, to be really, really good at this job. You’ve got… you almost need AI to be able to stay caught up with all these things. Cool. Okay, so let’s go into the second question. So, I’m gonna save some time at the end, where we’ll pull some of the questions that are coming in from the audience, but I’m going to keep going here, and then we’ll bring those together. One of the things, Hannah, you talked to… you alluded to this a little bit, is, like, there’s always been… there’s been these conversations around a CRO role handling… managing sales, marketing, and customer success. That is a hugely challenging thing to do. Our agents can actually make that more possible, where a lot of this stuff can be pulled together, and like, where do you guys sit on where that is in terms of possibility? I’ll start… James, I’ll start with you.

James Roth:
Seth, could you… could you ask it just one more time?

Seth Marrs:
So… Sales, marketing, and customer success are typically in, like, there’s been a lot of talk about a CRO role taking that part over and running all of it together. That kind of hasn’t really happened for a lot of different reasons. One of the major ones is just, how do you get continuity in data? How do you get continuity in process? things that agents and AI are really good about stitching together. Where do you see this in terms, like, do you guys have sales, marketing, and customer success, and do you see that coming together in the future and being enabled by AI and some of these agents that are being built?

James Roth:
Yeah, so current, current state, our go-to-market team, or the CRO org. We’ve got sales, CX, partner, rev ops, we’ve got portions of marketing, like outbound. We’ve actually separated inbound versus outbound. I think, you know, one of the things when marketing owns all of marketing, you have so many things that fall up under marketing. You’ve got brand, you’ve got… Demand Gen, you know, I’ve seen orgs that will put SDRs under marketing, and I think… one of the things we’ve done here is, what problem are you trying to solve? You know, if you say, okay, I’m so tired of hearing marketing complain that SDRs or SDRs complain about marketing, let’s move SDRs over to marketing, all you’re really doing is changing the metric they’re gonna fight over. Whether you’re fighting over good fit show rate, whether you’re fighting over Demo 1s, whether you’re fighting over conversion. you’re just moving the battleground, and so I think we got very specific in terms of outbound is traditionally more of a sales motion that we, through RevOps and through the overarching machine. I would rather own outbound, where you have signal orchestration, you’ve got the right, you know, signals that are driving outbound, and then you have the right contacts, so I say, okay, you want to call Seth, you want to call Hannah, you want to call Mary Lee, and then you’ve got this amazing context where you can look at the last 100 deals we won in that sub-segment, in that sub-vertical. We can have an AI talk track that basically takes all the work out, or all the thought out. from an outbound SDR. And so, you know, we’ve started to pick the pieces that make the most sense to live in certain areas, and then as far as, like, brand and some of those things. totally live and market, and so I think it… it’s not necessarily, like, this org design is right, wrong, or indifferent. I mean, we’ve got 40,000 customers, and you see Chief Growth Officer, you see Chief Strategy Officer, you see Chief Business Officer, and a lot of times, these titles are just created because somebody made a lot of noise, and they wanted to be a chief something, and so you get into, you know, I’m a CRO, but I’ve just got, you know, a couple salespeople, or you’ve got a chief business officer. I think the titles and what reports where, I think to the overarching theme of architecture, it is where do these things have the most They’re the greatest opportunity to be successful. And if you have what is outbound, which used to live under marketing, and that was primarily warm leads and MQLs and, like, the MQL, don’t even get me started on the MQL, But ultimately, like, what should live where in your machine? And our machine is very different from other machines, and so I think taking a very strong look at that, and I think most importantly, having the accountability for what you are going to be judged for is most important, hence the MQL, you know, if somebody can basically win because the MQL number is very high, but then the overall revenue isn’t there and the team is losing, who cares? And so we’ve, you know, I think Shane made the earlier point on just, like, the ability to deconstruct what is the traditional way to go about things, and in this world where, you know, you don’t need an entire marketing ops team to build out what we want our outbound motion to be. like, yes, still drive hot, still drive inbound, you own the website, like, we need to continue to drive what is a great inbound engine, but on the flip side, you know, just because it traditionally lives in marketing land doesn’t mean that we’re just going to do that, because I think traditional’s thrown out the window. So… you know, we’ve got a great CMO, incredibly… it actually came from a finance background, incredibly bright, looks at it like a mathematical machine, which I love. We’ve got a great person for brand, and then from, like, a true demand gen outbound that lives in go-to-market, or in CRO.org, if that makes sense.

Seth Marrs:
Yeah, so, I mean, basically, align the skills to what… to the job to be done. I mean, you made a good point about that with brand, right? Like, you can make a really strong argument, like, brand is a whole different beast than any of the go-to-market functions or the demand functions.

James Roth:
Exactly.

Seth Marrs:
Dengita, how about you? What’s your take?

Sangeeta:
So, at Amage, we have… brought all of the revenue stack into one organization. And I own sales, customer success, marketing, services, operations. I think for us, this is the right structure, because, the go-to-market organization, in my view, has to be built around the entire customer experience. The buyer journey, the customer journey, all the way starting from awareness. Confidence building, the ability to actually understand the product into delivery, into understanding the value, getting the value from the product itself. One of the things that I’ve been on a personal soapbox on for a while has been to ban the term post-sales. I just don’t let that term happen, because it doesn’t really make sense anymore when I be done selling. But it’s… it’s a little bit of, you know, something I use to bring home to the teams that we’re never done, and we’re all in it together to solve the same problem, which is, are we delivering continuous value to the customer? The question on whether AI will finally enable consolidation on the buyer, I look at it in, I guess, in a two-step manner. I think AI makes the case for unification much stronger. It does create a common layer of understanding much more than we were able to do before. If we get our deal signals, our usage data, our support conversations, the marketing conversations, all into the same system. I think we’d lose the excuse for why we are operating in different silos. So, whether it’s in the same org or not, or whether you’re partnering from different orgs. You have to come together. But the data alone doesn’t make that shift happen. I think organizational change has to be intentional, and that starts from the top. It starts from how we all come together as leaders. technology breaks down the silos, but ultimately, the way we behave is where we show up as leaders, and I think that’s part of our job as the CROs, to bring the entire organization into feeling like they all own the revenue number at the end of the day. I do think that AI is helping with that consolidation.

Seth Marrs:
But it’s still gonna be the CRO that’s facilitating it and making those things real for your buyers and customers.

Sangeeta:
Yep.

Seth Marrs:
Hannah, what’s your take?

Hannah Willson:
Yeah, I mean, in terms of our org structure that we have here, it sounds somewhat similar to what James was describing. So within my team, we have everything, but, you know, marketing and pieces of marketing, fall within the sales organization and the revenue organization. But I think more broadly, like, what excites me about this next phase is, like, the customer journey. I mean, we’ve all been talking for years about, like, how do we optimize the customer journey? What is the customer journey? But now we can actually create, like, a truly seamless customer journey from the time we first start engaging with them through marketing activities, through the sales funnel, through the customer experience. It’s agents and it’s humans interacting in real time, but it’s, like, highly tied to what their needs are. We just built, like, a pretty simple agent this week, where we were… when we transitioned customers from our sales team to our CS team, you know, back in the day, what did we used to do? So we would have the, you know, the salesperson go and plug a bunch of things into Salesforce, this is what they care about, these are the fields I need to fill out. Whereas now, you can develop, like, a totally comprehensive report of everything that happened during the sales process, give it to the CSM, they know exactly what to focus on in that first call. That first call is directly tailored to the client’s needs. And so I just think it’s so cool that this, like, the customer side of the journey is going to be so seamless, and I think because, as a result of that. I think our organizations are going to be… have to become more seamless, and we’re not going to have those same silos that we did in the past. What exactly that looks like, I don’t know. But yeah, it’s an awesome time, I think, to be a customer.

Seth Marrs:
Yeah, it almost seems like this could be a competitive advantage that sets that off, right? Because the minute that you start doing it, then everyone else is going to have to follow, or they won’t look the same to a buyer.

Hannah Willson:
Yeah.

Seth Marrs:
Marley, how about you?

Marilee Bear:
Yeah, yeah. So, I’m about 18 months into my journey here at Gainsight, and my remit has changed quite a bit since day one. So, around the one-year mark, I took on, in addition to sales, customer success. account management, rev ops, enablement, partner, etc. I then took on, don’t, don’t be mad, Sankita, the post-sales, the entire post-sales team, inclusive of CS, professional services and support. I also took on, parts of our marketing, and part of that was because, we had our CMO, who was wonderful, ended up leaving the business, and so we took DemandGen, and we put that into the go-to-market organization, and, somewhat similar to James, it includes our outbound, motion, as well as our inbound, and, you know, we’re using agents there, of course, like every everyone. And no, I am not an empire builder, but I do love being able to be sort of like the composer, if you’re thinking about an orchestra, of all of the different players in the organization and teams, and I think the biggest… unlock for us has been around, just sort of breaking down silos. I think regardless of the size of company you’re in, you can be in a… You know, $50 million company or a $5 billion company, and there’s this concept of silos can happen, and, you know, in that, that creates miscommunication, you know, misaligned goals. You know, you think about an orchestra out of tune, it doesn’t sound great, and it’s not great for a go-to-market organization either. But with AI, and the question about, you know, what does AI do? However, I think, you know. My take on it is. AI has exposed so much to us, you know, just being able to get clear signaling from clients, whether it’s through, you know, our Staircase product, our Gong, which we also use, you know, seeing that and really understanding what’s actually happening, how does the customer really feel? What are they saying? What are they emailing us? What are they saying on Slack? What are we hearing on calls? Really helps us, helps to inform how we coordinate ourselves across all of the different functions. We still have a lot to learn, we still have a ways to go in all that coordination, but I’ve seen attributable change and improvement, by having it all in one organization. Now, with our marketing team, we have a new teammate, really excited about, our SVP of Corporate Marketing who just joined, Emily Singer, and she owns brand, events, PR, communications, all of that. I don’t want to own that. That’s not my wheelhouse by any means, but I love being able to, really affect how we… how we show up from a demand gen perspective. A year ago, we had a massive pipeline issue. We have… pretty much, you know, we’ve gotten that back on track. All sources of pipe gen are performing as they should, which is great, because we all know when we have the right amount of pipeline coverage, life gets a lot easier.

Seth Marrs:
Right? So, yeah, right role. So you have a marketing leader coming in, but they’re handling the things that aren’t going to impact the go-to-market the way that you can impact it.

Marilee Bear:
Exactly.

Seth Marrs:
all the.

Marilee Bear:
Yes. Exactly, yeah. She handles the Pulse conference, for example. We’re known for Pulse. It’s a great conference, but I am not an events planner, by any means. I will leave my events planning to my kids’ birthday parties, and that’s about it.

Seth Marrs:
Alright, so let’s go to the next one. I want to talk a little bit about the skills. with all this stuff that’s changing in a sales role, what’s one skill that won’t change as go-to-market evolves with your… with your… take your sales team? Or let’s take it from the perspective of your sales team. Like, what skill in a great seller won’t change? And what’s one that… that definitely will? And, Sangeeta, why don’t you start us off?

Sangeeta:
I think the one that will not change is really true, curiosity and empathy for the customer’s business. I don’t see how we can ever automate that away. It’s just never going to go away. That is, to me, what separates the bestsellers from the… from the run-of-the-mill mediocre. what will change, is hopefully all of the… whether you call it excuses or real reason, that I really couldn’t do my real job, because half the time I was, looking for data and writing emails and, you know, doing all the grant work. that’s gone. I think it’s going to fundamentally shift. But hopefully for the best sellers, the right sellers, it actually gives them so much more time of the day to sit with the customer and get to know their lives very much more intimately than they’ve ever had a chance to before. So I do think that is a positive change that I’m excited about.

Seth Marrs:
So, like, when you said that, empathy kind of leads to curiosity, and, like, if you think, if I have more time, it gives you more time to be curious, so it kind of cycles in to make you better at the things that you’re keeping, and yeah, as you get rid of the stuff that you don’t need.

Sangeeta:
Yeah, I mean, I think the best sellers don’t like to do anything but actually sit and understand the customer. And, but they’re forced to do a lot of the grunt work that now I think automation is hoping, you know, I’m hoping it’s resolving for us, getting better every day. So if there’s anything that they’ll keep doing, it’s more and more of that which makes them better.

Seth Marrs:
Fantastic. Hannah, how do you see this? What are yours?

Hannah Willson:
I think if we’re talking about maybe individual sellers, I would say, you know, trust building, kind of building on what Sangeeta said, like, curiosity, building that trust, building that credibility, I think is going to continue to be important. If we’re talking about leaders, you know, just still building and inspiring people around the mission. I think that’s going to be more important than ever, especially as our organizations undergo massive change, we bring in more technology. like, aligning people around the mission. I think, you know, those good leadership traits that have persisted across many technological changes probably are gonna carry through here as well. So yeah, some of the things that I think will stay the same.

Seth Marrs:
What do you think is something that, that will, that will change?

Hannah Willson:
I mean, certainly for managers, like, if you were a manager of the past where you would look at, you know, dashboards all day and use that to sort of crack the whip on your team, like, we’re not going to need those managers. We interviewed a manager, last week for a role, it was an internal promotion, and he was really good at, like, systems building and, you know, creating, you know, he was almost like a GTM engineer type, like, he was able to build those things from the ground, which is really valuable. But on the other hand, was, like, really good at the human aspect of the job, and had a strong reason for, you know, wanting to lead people, and wanting to coach people, and I think the role of the manager probably does change pretty significantly, especially for those managers that, you know, led a certain way, and again, the bar is just gonna raise for everyone.

Seth Marrs:
Yeah, that makes sense. Marilyn?

Marilee Bear:
Yeah, I think I would say two things. I think critical thinking and EQ are going to be really important. So, I’ll go with EQ first. Tagging onto what Sangeeta said, I think the in-person element, you know, we lost that during COVID. I think it’s come back. It’s certainly not as, you know, prevalent as it used to be. A lot of companies are still remote only, but I do think that there’s a lot of value in having an EQ to be able to sit down in a room of people, not in front of a computer screen or a Zoom screen, and really have a conversation about, you know, what are their business challenges? I mean, this is not new stuff, I just think it will be even more important as we find ourselves, you know, more than ever in front of a screen, whether it’s on your phone or, you know, on your laptop. And so I do believe that that EQ will help, you know, certainly for those types of situations. And then critical thinking. I mean, I was considering this today, you know? You can prompt Claude and ask how to close this deal, you know, in a very complex environment, in a massive company with multiple stakeholders, and you can get a rough, you know, sort of view of the steps to close, and what you might think about pulling in various Types of data and information. But there’s so much nuance still, you know, in every situation, and I think, you know, certainly a tool like Claude can be helpful in that case, but at the end of the day, the critical thinkers are the ones who are going to get deals done quick… more quickly, who are going to bring more to the table, and it will also… critical thinking feeds the EQ, right? It helps inform what questions you ask, how you show up, your curiosity. So, I would say, you know, EQ and critical thinking.

Seth Marrs:
Yeah, because if you’re just following rotely the next best action, how are you going to be different than anybody else doing that?

Marilee Bear:
It’s a robot.

Seth Marrs:
find ways to be unique beyond, and be informed by it, but don’t be a slave to it, to a certain degree.

Marilee Bear:
100%.

Seth Marrs:
Shane, how about you?

Shane Evans:
I love what’s been said around, like, human skills, trust, and empathy, and being able to connect with people, and I think that’s gonna be at a premium. You find people that are really good at making those connections, and they’re gonna do very well in this next phase of revenue. Where, just to offer another point of view, I think the ability to connect to outcomes, and so, it’s one thing to understand the context of what’s happening, but we find our top performers are experts in making certain that whatever we’re doing with a customer Helps them connect that back to financial impact, or some type of outcome. And so you can’t just be really good at showing up and building trust with people. If you don’t help them connect that to what’s going to move the needle on the business, you’re not going to gain that trusted advisor. So there’s one element to have, like, the human aspect, but you really have to connect that back to the business and the financial impact and the outcome. And as we study that top performance, inevitably, that shows up every single time. Like, you can drive that all the way through that partnership and that relationship, and then you really get to to… trusted advisor. On the flip of that. I think the one thing that is definitely no longer as valuable as it used to be is just plain old activity. It used to be that if you showed up and made enough dials, or you showed up and, you know, were in the seat long enough, enough at-bats, you could figure it out. And that’s just no longer the case anymore. You know, for 20 years, we’ve managed activity management as an indicator of how successful we’re going to be, and thankfully, we’ve moved well past that now. And we can now get into, like, behavioral elements, and so the days of just being able to work… outwork everybody, work harder, it’s no longer going to carry the day anymore, and I think we’re going to see that continue to be, people have to skill and level up if they’re going to be relevant.

Seth Marrs:
Yeah, you’ve got to find a way to add value more so than I just dial enough people and it’ll eventually get to the number. Fantastic. James, why don’t you finish us off on this question?

James Roth:
I mean, just adding on to that point, because I think it’s one of the biggest, opportunities where we’ve all probably managed teams, and you always had to make that trade-off where you had a portion of the team that were hitting all the activity metrics, but then you watch their call, or you join a meeting with them, and it makes your skin crawl, because they’re just not great at sales, but they’re just grinders. And I think, traditionally, you would keep those folks in the org because it was worth that level of activity, and you’re like, I love this person because they work really hard, they’re just not that great at the job, and we try to coach them, and I think there is a… an overarching… paradigm shift in terms of who you can hire and, you know, groups that, you know, whether it’s from different industries, whether it’s from, you know. Great schools if you’re hiring entry-level, and usually there was a trade-off when you hired entry-level folks in sales, because you just had to look for the folks that were willing to go, in the old, old days, hit a bunch of doors, make a bunch of calls, whatever it may be. And I think now you can… you can hire for a lot of the attributes that everyone has already talked about, because you do take out what was the worst part of sales, is that you’re gonna make 200 calls, you’re gonna get some list from somewhere, you have no idea if any… half of them are gonna tell you to, you know, hang up on you and tell you a horrible thing. And you can take some of that out and make it a little bit more attractive to come in without having to do, like, that just unbelievable amount of early-on activity. And so I think for the… a lot of great points were made. You know, I think just to hit the point home. I think some of the things that will always remain, and when I say always, maybe 5 years out, because who knows what it looks like in 5 years. But I think the ability, you know, they talked about trust, building relationships, the in real life, I think incredibly important. And I think the way I typically articulate it internally is the ability to build confidence. Whether you’re leading and you’re building confidence with the team. for them to follow, not only the company, you as a leader, whatever it may be, like, you have to be able to inspire that confidence that they’re at the right place, doing the right things, right product, so on and so forth. And then, more importantly, instill confidence in the actual customer, buyer, prospect. Because their ability, and you can wrap that up into EQ, you can wrap that up into trust, you can wrap that up into a variety of things, but if the buyer, customer, prospect is confident that not only you know your stuff, and you’re gonna bring them on this journey, and they’re gonna see great outcomes, like. I think that is one of the most important things in both sales and sales leadership, is that if you’re working with me, and, you know, or I’m working with you, and I am confident that I’m working with the right team, and the right person and the right company, it’s incredibly important. And then, I would say, just the last one. that is oftentimes forgotten, and I don’t think, despite great prompts and great agents, like, the ability to do great discovery live with an actual end customer, end or prospect. You can have, you know, the… every… before the meeting, I get the agent that tells me exactly what I need to know about Gong, and exactly what I need to know about Shane. That is great. But what I’ve found, at least, is as the agents continue to get better. and I have a meeting with Merrill Lee, and we’re gonna go connect on X, Y, and Z. I go to the teams, and I say, okay, I put into the agent, they send me the exact same thing that I have, and you lose that human element of, like, what am I actually trying to accomplish with Marilee? Like, what is the win from this meeting? I can get the exact same output from the account research agent, I can get all the same context. from all of our first-party emails, sentiment calls, and so on and so forth, but they lose a little bit of that human, like, what are some great report points? Now, you can pull those out, the agent is great at report points, I get it. But I do think that… that deeper discovery to connect with an individual, that is probably one of the things we’re gonna pay a lot more for, because so much of the additional work of the rep that was great because they were on LinkedIn at midnight every night looking at, you know, Merrilee joined Gainsight, or Shane joined Gong, and they ran the right play at the right time, and they were just totally organized on top of it, I think that skill set has now fully been automated out, which I think is an unbelievable opportunity for the great sales reps that might not have been the best organized, or might not have had the rigor to do some of those things. They just love being salespeople, so… I think there’s gonna be an overall shift in terms of the talent, in terms of, like, what you really pay for, and frankly, what the role itself looks like.

Seth Marrs:
Yeah, I mean, sitting and listening to you guys both talk about the CRO role and the seller role. the beginning part of our conversation, you talked very heavily about how much more technically savvy a seller is going to need to be, and then in this conversation, we’re talking about how much more you’re going to have to focus on EQ and the soft skills of a seller, and then you have to have an unbelievable understanding of the buyer. this job doesn’t seem like it’s getting easier in terms of the work you have to do. Maybe the admin’s going away, but you’re… Requirement to think and apply to be valuable to a customer. Seems more important than ever, and more valuable than ever in these types of roles. Very interesting. Okay, next question for you guys. You all have technology that supports go-to-market leaders. What’s one feature in your own technology that you use that is the biggest difference maker for you? Hannah, why don’t you start off?

Hannah Willson:
Yeah, let me think. So, for us, I mean, so our technology does a lot in terms of top of funnel, and actually one place that I’d sort of written off with top of funnel in the last couple years was emailing. I think we all get tons of emails, I think the AI explosion kind of, in some ways, made it worse, in terms of the quality of emails, and I think we’ve all continued to see email response rates go down significantly. But for us, like, it kind of turns out when you do it right, and you bring in those deep, deep signals to understand everything about a customer, you actually can get high response rates off of email, so we’ve implemented that in the past couple weeks, and yeah, we’ve 2X’d our emails, we’ve dramatically increased pipeline, so I think there’s these things that, you know, kind of go back and forth, and email is one of them. You know, email went from, you know, very bespoke in maybe the early 2000s to this volume play. And I feel like now we can get to, like, a high efficiency and effectiveness place with email specifically.

Seth Marrs:
If you do it right. Like, if you set it up the right way, it can still work.

Hannah Willson:
Yeah. If it’s very tailored to the person’s pain, like, if it’s just a generic email, like, yeah, we don’t respond to those.

Seth Marrs:
Makes sense, makes sense. Interesting. Merrily.

Marilee Bear:
Yeah, yeah, we have a product called Staircase, which uses intelligence And signaling, you know, to help our… for me personally, as well as for our CSMs, as well as our sellers. to help us understand when we have stakeholder changes. So, when I came into Gainsight, we primarily were selling to the CCO persona, VP of Customer Success. We sort of stayed within the silo of customer success. That was our wheelhouse. That’s how we, you know, grew the majority of our business, and A lot has happened in the last year and a half or two years in terms of customer success moving under the revenue organization, no longer reporting directly to a CEO in some cases. And so, with that, and with the addition of agents with our Atlas platform, which is an agentic platform for renewals and adoption. We’re finding that we have to certainly go outside of that CS silo and go make new friends in the revenue organization, in the IT organization, in the marketing organization. And, you know, there’s some muscle memory around, you know, we feel very comfortable with the CS persona, we now have to go sell to a CIO, and I have a lot of people on my team who’ve never actually sold to an IT organization, you know, directly. And so. I’m always, you know, talking about we have to multi-thread, and we need, you know, stakeholder mapping, and we have a lot of tools to do all of that. But what I love about Staircase is the real-time signaling. When someone, you know, leaves an organization, when they move to a new role, and a good example of this was we had a stakeholder who moved from CS to a different part of the organization. And it wasn’t… they didn’t signal directly to us. They didn’t send us an email that said, hey, I’m moving, I’m moving over to this new group. We actually picked it up on Staircase, and we were able to see, hey, we’ve got some risk. Now that this person is now in this group, we have… we’re seeing what’s happening there, and you know, we saw that signal months before the renewal, and it helped us kind of course correct, you know, take a step back, look at how we’re planning, how we’re thinking about the account overall, and how we’re thinking about the renewal. And I think if we wouldn’t have had that signaling, I don’t know if we would have caught that, and we could have potentially, you know, had a, a less impactful, less positive, renewals outcome. So, I love Staircase, I look at it every day, I pretty much live and breathe in it, and It certainly has made my life a lot easier.

Seth Marrs:
Gotcha. Making… providing the value of the product that you’re giving… that you’re providing to them in advance, so you could use it in the renewal.

Marilee Bear:
Exactly.

Seth Marrs:
Awesome. Shane, how about you?

Shane Evans:
Yeah, so the one that I use the most, we talked earlier about changes and pivots across the market right now. Within Gong, there’s a tool called AI Theme Spotter And so I can cut across all calls, all initiatives, if we’re launching a new product or a new messaging, or if there’s a competitive dynamic. In real time, I can cut across everything and get… an idea of exactly what’s happening. And like most revenue leaders, I have no shortage of ideas on things I would love to go launch and try. This gives me an opportunity to pick a small group and launch a certain initiative and A-B test it, and then get the signal in real time from the voice of the customer, from the voice of the employees that’s playing out. And it makes me feel, not feel… I’m able to now operate at a different level, because I’m no longer based on, like, gut, feeling, or hunch. I can actually have customer voice that gives that a whole different level of depth. And so, that’s something I use, daily as we’re working with the field and the teams, different ideas that come up, in the flow of business.

Seth Marrs:
Fantastic. Really interesting. James! Yes, sir.

James Roth:
I’ll do two, and I’ll make them quick. So the first one, we have a tool called GoToMarket Studio, and I think, Sangeeta, you had mentioned this earlier. I think in the old days, and Shane, to your point, a lot of big ideas, like, if I wanted to go run a specific campaign or competitive takeout, and I had to go to CIO to get a bunch of product data out of Snowflake, and then I had to go to RevOps to get a bunch of CRM data, or these customers, these not… like, it was a miserable… month-long process, and I had to call in chits to basically get favors from, you know, our CDO, who was gonna pull a bunch of this data. And so we saw this problem in the market where folks, you know, so much first-party data lives in so many different silos, some with RevOps, some with enablement, some with CTO, some with CIO. The ability to plug data sources in, internal data sources, and then marry that with third-party, whether that’s ZoomInfo, other third-party data sources, to basically build out, like, a living, breathing. table, if you will. You know, there’s a company that has done this well, and they’re a both competitor and also a huge consumer of our data. But that is the tool I’ve been using, because all of the ideas, all the creativity where I’d think of a great play, and then I’d have to go ask, and a bunch of Slack channels, and a bunch of, you know, just a pain. I can now just build it on my own, and it’s all open prompt, so a non-technical, non-coding type guy can go in and pull every customer that’s over half a million dollars, who has a renewal in the next 6 to 9 months, that has a new CRO, or a new head of RevOps, who’s also exuding signals in terms of intent, or on your website, or bad sentiment, good sentiment, whether it’s a white space or whether it’s a defensive play. the ability to pull all of those data points in without having to ask anybody, and most importantly, build it myself, and then have the ability to go push that into a Gong, or into a NUX, or into some activation platform with ease, where I just don’t have to… I don’t have to ask, it allows me to be a true architect, if you will. And I think with so many of the tool proliferation for the last couple of years, it has kind of hurt our ability to be architect Which is strange, given how many awesome tools there are out there. So that’s one, and then the other one, super quick, is just our MCP server into Claude, or into GPT, where I can basically go build micro apps that I can then use ZoomInfo data directly into Claude. that’s one I’m probably using the most. You know, just interesting use cases. I’m sure one that would resonate with a bunch of folks, like LinkedIn. We all get hit up on LinkedIn probably a thousand times a day, to the point where it is effectively useless, because I don’t know, like, I can never get through the messages or the connections in a given day, and there’s a lot of really good stuff in there. And so basically exporting all that data, putting it into Claude, building a micro-app that allows me to basically go through all those things, then enrich that with ZoomInfo data, and then go run plays against either, like, a TA play, where anybody who’s reached out looking for a job, or any good SDR that’s hit me with a good value proposition, basically export all that data, Claude builds the app that does it, and then I enrich it with ZoomInfo data, and then I can go basically run a TA motion at all of them. Then on the flip side, all of the folks that might be in an active cycle with some new business rep that I don’t know about, where their CRO inbounds or connects with me, and then I just hit accept, and I forget that I accepted it, you know, creating those types of things, like, it’s an amazing tool, and then the ability to bring Zoom info directly into that, so that I don’t need to go create a table is… Those are the two that I’m constantly in.

Seth Marrs:
That’s fascinating to see what the CROs are using, the tools that CROs are using these days. Singita, how about you?

Sangeeta:
Yeah, by the way, fun use cases, and Shane, I just signed on the requisition for Gong today, so I’ll check out this feature. So, I might be the anomaly in the group. What I do sell is for go-to-market teams in the media industry. So if you think about, let’s say the Super Bowl, every ad slot is worth millions and millions of dollars. the feature that our customers rely enormously on, and we realized this the hard way when we changed a version and some things didn’t work out the way they were in the previous version, is analytics. And I think that’s the theme that I heard from a number of us, that signaling is very, very crucial, revenue signals is everything. I use that system to understand how my customers are making money and where not, and how I can go and intervene on their behalf in real time. It’s literally millions of dollars. In real time. So I think that’s… that’s the skill that we have to keep relying on. What signals do we give to our customers to make their businesses better?

Seth Marrs:
Got it, got it, fantastic. It’s… it is, like, if you think about that when you guys were talking about the things you’re using, those are things, I think, in the past, you would have actually gone and had people do that, but with these tools coming, you guys are able to go experiment with ThemeSpotter, go in to experiment with GoToMarket Studio, like, it’s… Yeah, very interesting. All right, so I want to get to at least one of the questions that’s in the chat. One is around… and I’d ask that each of you just say one of the KPIs, like, what… one of the things that came out of this, like, will KPIs be changing as a result of this. Like, if there is, could you say one that you think would change? And…

Shane Evans:
I’ll jump in. Revenue per interaction. And so we’ve had for years all sorts of different metrics that we’re tracking as far as pipeline, pipe conversion, win rate, CAC ratios, on and on and on. Revenue per interaction is what we’re going to be moving towards. If you want to simplify it, like, in a vehicle, it’s miles per gallon. Like, if we were to hold ourselves accountable to how we’re driving efficiency, it’s how much revenue are we generating for each interaction we have with a customer. That’s oversimplifying, but I think that’s where we’re heading.

Seth Marrs:
Awesome, awesome. Passed it. Who else? Anyone else have one that you could think of top of mind in the minute we have left?

Marilee Bear:
Shane’s was so good. I… I do think we’re… I mean, this is not a new one, but I think it’s a change, which is just overall attribution. I think attribution has been tough in the past, like, understanding…

Seth Marrs:
possible.

Marilee Bear:
where did this pipe gen come from? Was it marketing? Was it part… you know, partner’s a little more clear, but, like, marketing, or AE-driven, or events-driven, or from a webinar? And I don’t know how much that matters. I mean, I get, like, we have to understand it from a spend perspective and an ROI perspective. But as we start to, you know, as we talked about here today, consolidation of the go-to-market, like, breaking down silos, I think that will become less relevant, and I think, you know, like, I love, Shane, what you brought up, which is that actually matters a lot more than the attribution and who gets the credit, right?

Seth Marrs:
Yep, yep. All right, with that, I know we’re up on time. Thank you guys very much, and really enjoyed the conversation.

Marilee Bear:
Thank you, have a great one.

Julia Nimchinski:
Thank you so much.

Sangeeta:
Thank you.

Julia Nimchinski:
you go. What’s the best way to support you? What’s the latest and greatest with Sendler?

Seth Marrs:
So, I mean, just checking out some of the things that we have going in terms of changing. We’re partnering with people to really kind of modernize what Sandler is and how we use these tools to make a difference, and then, yeah, get in touch on LinkedIn, if you ever want to chat about that.

Julia Nimchinski:
Thanks so much again. Thank you. And next up, Russell Chervin leads our conversation with Pat Casey, CTO and EVP of DevOps at ServiceNow. Russell, Pat, welcome. Honored to have you here. What’s in your agenda, Coetz?