When Everyone Can Ship

Julia Nimchinski:

Welcome to the show! Welcome back, Robin Daniels, Chief Business Officer of Zensai, and Nick Bugatti, CRO of Ursel. What a treat! We just had Nick. We lost Nick. It’s live TV.

Robin Daniels:

Robin?

Julia Nimchinski:

How are you doing?

Robin Daniels:

I’m good, Julia, how are you?

Julia Nimchinski:

So we’re excited for this one!

Robin Daniels:

I know, me too! How many times have we done this now? It must be… oh yeah, I know, I know, right?

Julia Nimchinski:

5 years living the matrix.

Robin Daniels:

I know. Exactly, exactly.

Julia Nimchinski:

Awesome. Take it away.

Robin Daniels:

Awesome, awesome. Hey, Nick, how’s it going, man? Can you hear me? Oh, let’s see. Hey, Nick! Oh, he’s, he’s, he’s getting, he’s getting plugged into the Matrix. Can you hear me? I’m here. You’re here? That’s awesome, that’s great, that’s great. Good to see you, man. How are you?

2F-Raven (6):

Yeah, you too. I’m great. I’m great, thanks.

Robin Daniels:

Excellent, excellent. It’s for… for… where are you, dialing in from?

2F-Raven (6):

To San Francisco.

Robin Daniels:

San Francisco, okay. I’m coming from the other side of the world, I’m in Copenhagen, Denmark right now, so it truly is a global… it truly is a global event, which is awesome.

2F-Raven (6):

Indeed.

Robin Daniels:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I’m super excited to have this chat with you and really dig into, I think, basically. the topic that’s top of mind for everyone right now. And before we get started, why don’t you just introduce yourself?

I mean, you’ve had an incredible career, and just, like, the companies you’ve worked at and what you do now, I think, speaks volumes. So, but for the audience who does not know who you are, why don’t you, why don’t you introduce yourself?

2F-Raven (6):

Sure, thanks. So, first of all, I’m super excited to be here. I am the CRO at a company called Vercel. Vercel is an infrastructure company that’s, very, dev-friendly for, for websites and now for AI workloads as well. And prior to, prior to Vercel, I had a variety of general management positions at Adobe.

I was a CRO of a company called AppDynamics, which made developer tools and observability tools. And so, yeah, I’m sort of interested in how people design things, and interested in how people build things, so it’s kind of a ripe moment in history.

Robin Daniels:

That’s awesome, that’s awesome. I think I’ve pulled a Vercel card, because my last session I did with the Hard Skill Exchange was also with your COO over from Vercel, so…

2F-Raven (6):

payments.

Robin Daniels:

Yeah, I think you guys, you’ve got a great company. So, just for those of you who don’t know who I am, I’m Robin Daniels.

I’m the chief business officer at a company called Sensai, and we basically focus on optimizing human performance and creating high-performing teams where We basically are an agentic AI solution that gives people the knowledge, skills, and motivation they need to be successful every single day.

We’re a scale-up, we’re not quite, you know, hit… full, full trajectory yet, but we’re, we’re definitely out of the startup phase, so super exciting. I’ve been there about 3 years. So, let’s dig into this.

My first question, just so we can kind of level set with everyone and kind of get on the same page, is really, there’s a lot of talk about AI-native products, AI-native companies, and so on. Can you define what that means for us?

I mean, you’ve been around for a while as a company, and how do you define AI-native, and what’s the distinction between an AI-native company and those who pretend to be AI-native?

2F-Raven (6):

I think at the end of the day, like, the… what AI is for, and sort of, like… sorry to be so high level about this, or what, like, computers have always been for is about, like, productivity gains, is, like, human productivity gains.

And so the line for me really is, like, hey, are companies… are companies using this technology for, like, very significant incremental productivity gains for, like, human beings? And, you know, if you really make the distinction, it’s like, hey, is some, like, chatbot feature, you know, glued onto the side of your SaaS product?

Is that delivering productivity gains, or is there some… like, real workflow that is different, that you have built using these technologies, that, like, fundamentally changes the game in productivity. And I would say the latter are real native companies, and the former are not.

Robin Daniels:

I love that, I like that. Makes sense, makes sense. And do you… when you think about, because Purcello’s been around since, I think, 2015, right? I think it’s when you started. And I’ve spent my career at the forefront of GTM.

I’ve worked at Salesforce, Box, LinkedIn, WeWork, Matterport, taken a few companies publicly, and there’s so much you can write about go-to-market. I always hate when people ask, hey, what’s this?

You know, like, it’s like you can boil it down to a single bullet point, but… If you had to give some insight and advice around how it’s different… how GTM is different for an AI-native company versus a traditional enterprise SaaS company. What are some things that you’ve observed?

And personally, then, what have you had to kind of, like, change in your mindset in order to, like, accept that this is a new reality that we’re going into?

2F-Raven (6):

Yeah, I think, like, I think that the biggest… The biggest change is, like, the products that we’re selling, are in the hands of a lot of people before you even talk to them at this point. And so, like, the way that I was kind of, like, brought up in sales is, like, you had this product that, like.

You… you had in your… in your house, in your company, and before you let anyone… and before you let anyone, like, touch it, or… vet it, or see if they had value out of it, you’d go through sort of, like, an extensive dance with a customer to sort of, like, you know, quote-unquote, like, align.

You know, through, you know, technical vetting, or, like, business.

Robin Daniels:

That’s bad.

2F-Raven (6):

or whatever. And then you’d eventually go through this process, and everyone would sort of, like, hopefully agree, and then you’d move forward. I think that’s just, like, wildly different now, especially in the space that, like, yeah, Vercel is in, where.

you know, executives are, like, coding their personal projects on, like, the weekends and stuff, and so then they come into work, and they’re like, I built a prototype of what we should build over the weekend, and then they’re like, well, how am I gonna actually scale this thing?

And who do I need to talk to to, like, productize it and bring it to market? And there’s just, like, so much experience and so much knowledge and products already being built before you even talk to customers, and I think that, like, fundamentally changes your go-to-market.

By the way, I think it changes your go-to-market, like, significantly for the better. I think there’s more transparency, like, across the board.

Robin Daniels:

This thing you just mentioned of everyone kind of vibe-coding their way into a better product, I’m seeing it, I’m seeing the same thing all the time. Is that… is that adding to a lot of, like, productivity gains in the company, or is it adding to a lot of chaos, or is it a little bit of both at this point? What are you seeing?

2F-Raven (6):

I think it’s a little bit of both. I mean, you know, is it a good thing that, like. the world can build, like they never could build before. The answer to that is, like, unequivocally, yes. Like, of course it’s better. You know, in the same way, like, the analogy that I would give is, is, you know, I had a long career at Adobe.

And, you know, Adobe started with, you know, the wife of the founder of Adobe, it was Chuck Geschke’s wife, was a designer. I think he was really into computers, and he was really into, sort of, like, design, and how people were doing, like, lettering, and kerning, and, like.

Robin Daniels:

Excuse me.

2F-Raven (6):

you know, all of the intricacies of design and brought that to a computer. And I think that fundamentally. That experience exploded… the whole design segment where there’s so many more designers, you know, as a result of that than there were before, and I think that’s a net positive to, like, society generally.

The same thing is happening here for building, and I think that’s a net.

Robin Daniels:

Thousands?

2F-Raven (6):

Does it cause chaos? Is there going to be a rationalization of it? Of course there is. like. Like, it ain’t going back, and I think it’s good that it is.

Robin Daniels:

Absolutely. I mean, it’s funny, I was just earlier today, doing a talk here in Copenhagen about this fact, you know. when you can experiment so easily now, I mean, Vercels is, you know, a great platform for that, but there’s lots of great platforms for all kinds of different things.

And the question came up, like, how do you then move from experimentation to… implementation. When do you know that something is ready for it, right? And you must have had to deal with that. Well, how are you thinking about that as well?

Especially in this aging world where now it’s not just you creating agents, but agents are trying to create other agents as well? This is getting a little crazy.

2F-Raven (6):

Yeah, I mean, we have very, sort of, like, you know, we have very specific experience here. As you can imagine, the people at Vercel really like to build things, as opposed to buying things, and so…

Robin Daniels:

I can imagine.

2F-Raven (6):

you know, we do, as just an example, in my world, my daily world, we do forecasting in a tool that we built ourselves. We do pipeline generation and outreach to our customers in a tool that we built ourselves. And the real, sort of, like.

marker for that is when an entire organization is using what you have built on a daily basis, as opposed to… Nick Bogany created his own forecasting tool that no one else uses, but he uses alone. And so, like.

Robin Daniels:

Why are your numbers different than… What’s that? Why are your numbers different than what I see in the dashboard?

2F-Raven (6):

Yeah, in total. So, you know, like, I think a big part of this is actually, you know, managing sort of, like, cultural change. It’s like a change management issue.

Robin Daniels:

Yep.

2F-Raven (6):

And sort of, like, what you’re focusing your efforts on that goes from personal projects to, you know, an organizational change.

Robin Daniels:

Yeah, makes sense. I mean, our CEO, we’re a 200-person company. I mean, there’s not a day that doesn’t go by when he comes in, hey, I just coded this, you know, last night. It’s like… and I love the enthusiasm, but I love the stuff that he codes. vibe coats, you know, video, but at least you’re trying, right?

Because you’re trying to, like, you see all these inefficiencies in the company, you see all these things that are broken, how we, you know. a lot of data is into GTM of time, because that’s the most visible thing, right? Yeah. And he comes in, you know, like, hey, let’s optimize this flow, or this flow, and do this here.

I think it’s great, it’s great. When it comes to, like, the culture then, you know, when you think about Vercel, you know, you had to probably change a lot as well. Again, you’ve been around gone through different waves, right? As we talked about earlier, and you’ve been around since 2015. how do you have to change?

I mean, what, like, if you look, just look back at the time you’ve been there, and then even before, maybe, I don’t know if you can comment on that, but what if you had to change and unlearn and, like… You said change management, which I think is kind of what a lot comes down to, but what… what did you ultimately have to change in order to get to the better side of this chasm?

2F-Raven (6):

I think, like… I think this whole, world of people building things differently is really, like, leading to this To this kind of amazing outcome where you can build software that’s completely customized to yourself and to your business.

That’s the… that’s the North Star, like, that’s… And to my earlier point of, like, you know, getting productivity out, just in my world, and, you know, every sales team’s world, is that there’s an enormous amount of time being spent on stuff that isn’t what, you know, go-to-market people should be spending their time on.

You know, updating CRM stuff, like…

Robin Daniels:

You know?

2F-Raven (6):

Reporting deal status up to their manager, and then their manager’s manager, and then their manager’s manager, and all the… all the wasted effort in all of that. And so, I think it’s really understanding, like, how you can build software.

Robin Daniels:

That is correct.

2F-Raven (6):

customized to actually how you want to run business. I think that’s the promise. The thing that you have to, like, figure out is actually how to build and maintain that software, and culturally, how you’re going to get your entire team to shift.

you know, again, to my earlier point on, sort of, change management, that’s, like, the leap, and that is the… that is really, like, the challenge here. And if you can cross that leap, like, there’s enormous, you know, revenue and efficiency gains to be had out of these technologies.

Robin Daniels:

Digging a little deeper on what you said, that… And I think we’re getting there. I mean, I think we’re not fully there yet, at least my perception.

I could be wrong, but… Yeah, you’re getting to the point where the technology is so mature, and so advanced that you could… every company could more or less build their own software or platforms, whatever they want, right? Maybe not.

There’s still some that are, like, where the workflows are so advanced, and there’s so much proprietary data in there, and security, and so on. We know that, but… I mean, you can imagine easily a future in the next 3 to 5, maybe 10 years, where those blockers go away. Do you think, like, traditional SaaS is cooked?

2F-Raven (6):

I don’t think it’s coached. I think that… I think that the… I think that the emphasis and the value changes significantly. And… and to give you, like, specific examples. I think the value of, like, the UI is far less than what it was in the past, and the value of, like, the intelligence and the system of record is far more valuable.

I will just give you an anecdote. I met with a company yesterday who was pitching me on a new product, like, for go-to-market efficiency. And basically what the product is, is, like, it’s… it’s basically like a coach to help reps understand, like, qualify their… their… their business, and to offer next steps, and to offer.

Or, you know, org charts on, like, who they should contact next. and the UI was, like, really nice. The problem is, is, like, the entire sales team is just operating, and all of our agents, of which we have many, are operating in this… in the… in the interface of Slack.

And so the UI of what they have built is totally, like, unimportant to me, but the intelligence of, like, how they can understand whether a…

Robin Daniels:

Number two.

2F-Raven (6):

is progressing right, and what their rep should do next, is the.

Robin Daniels:

More than that.

2F-Raven (6):

That’s the thing I want.

Robin Daniels:

So it’s like.

2F-Raven (6):

But the system of record and the intelligence is important, I think the UI is less and less important. And I think that’s, like, a dramatic shift for… SaaS companies.

Robin Daniels:

Totally. It’s interesting, it feels to me… like, a lot of the platforms that I’m being exposed to, and even we use, they all want to be, for lack of a better word, the control plane, the place where you go to, like, interact with. But it seems like it’s centering on, you know, Claude, or ChatGPT, or some of these other platforms, right?

And they’re gonna be the connectors, obviously. What does that mean, then, for all these other platforms, do you think that there’s… they have to rethink how to deliver product, they have to rethink their experience, they have to rethink value, how they price. I mean, speaking of pricing, I mean, that kind of changes everything, right?

If you don’t have… if you don’t care as much about per-seat pricing in that world either.

2F-Raven (6):

It’s consumption, you know, like, I think the per-seat pricing, world, you know, if the UI is less and less important, which I believe that’s true. And the system of record and the intelligence behind it is more important.

then you don’t charge by seats of access to the UI, you’re gonna charge by consumption of the system of record and the intelligence.

Robin Daniels:

That’s mine.

2F-Raven (6):

And so, you know, Salesforce is, like, you know, pushed for, you know, decision to say, like, hey, we have a headless system of record, is, you know, goes to that point. And I think people can make… as much or more money off of a consumption, you know, of their products and their APIs than seats, frankly.

Robin Daniels:

What are you doing?

2F-Raven (6):

I think that’s where it goes, for sure.

Robin Daniels:

It definitely feels like the trend is going in that direction. You have some natural tension, though, because a lot of more conservative CFOs, they don’t like that. It’s unpredictable.

And we’ve already now had many stories, I think, this year come out about consumption pricing going run amok, for lack of a better word, and Uber and other companies as well. How do you deal with that, do you think? I mean, how do you give more… so, for those, again, who don’t know who my company is, we’re 100% built on Microsoft, my platform.

And we only sell to companies who use Microsoft. That also means that a lot of our customers, and we have some of the best brands in the world, but they’re a little bit more traditional.

They’re not always at the cutting edge of Silicon Valley, where I spent 20 years of my life, you know, who are always the first to buy everything, and they experiment wildly. if I went in with that model to a lot of the customers I deal with now, they would just, like, throw me out the door. How do you bridge that gap, that tension?

You must deal with that as well as a CRO.

2F-Raven (6):

Yeah, I mean, you know, thankfully with Vercel, it’s a consumption-based business, so, like.

Robin Daniels:

Yeah, yeah.

2F-Raven (6):

transition. But, like, when I… when I look, when I look to, you know, when I look to my prior employer with Adobe, you know, that business is a seat space business, and if you sort of say, like, hey, Photoshop, I’m gonna sell a company Photoshop, how many people are gonna access Photoshop? They’re like 5, and here’s the 5 seats. It’s pretty clear.

I, I just think over, over time. You know, those people are going to want to generate images, you know, using models, and they’re going to want to, you know, edit those images, and far more of the value is actually tied to, like. the production of those images.

That’s a consumption-based business, and so, like, I think ultimately, at the end of the day, it’s more efficient because it’s more tied to value, and, you know, for both sides. that transition… It’s a difficult transition, but, you know.

once upon a time, SaaS didn’t exist, and it was all perpetual software, and we transitioned to SaaS, and, like, it really worked out for a whole bunch of companies, including Salesforce and Adobe and Microsoft.

Robin Daniels:

You’re absolutely right. I was there in the early days at Salesforce when that was one of our competitive, moats.

2F-Raven (6):

Exactly.

Robin Daniels:

We couldn’t compete… we couldn’t compete on features, so we would go in and say, we’re a different kind of company, you can scale up or down as you need to, you only pay for what you use, we’re in this together, right? So that became the mode, and I think there’s an opportunity here.

It has to be about the storytelling, I think, and the go-to-market behind it, creating those relationships with the CFO, the boards, and so on. Coming back to this notion that you can build anything so easily now.

I get exposed, like, I get pitched a lot on a lot of TTM products, and there’s so often where I think, this is really cool, we could use it, and then I kind of go. I could probably just build it myself, you know? Totally. I mean, where do you fall on this?

Do you end up buying a lot, or do you end up getting inspired, and then you build it yourself? Where’s, like… because you’re at the cutting edge of it, what’s your take on it?

2F-Raven (6):

Yeah, I mean, we, we build a lot of our, our products, and… and we, and we have a… we have a, a bias towards, toward building. That’s not terribly surprising, because… You know, because of the company that we are. But… And when we see, companies that are like, hey. Forecasting tools, it makes it simple.

We’re gonna… we’re gonna give you a really good UI for forecasting that sits on top of Salesforce, because Salesforce UI isn’t particularly, like, great, okay?

Robin Daniels:

Right.

2F-Raven (6):

And so there’s lots of those companies out there, or we’re gonna sit on top of Zoom to do call recordings, or, like, whatever.

Robin Daniels:

Whatever it is, because the.

2F-Raven (6):

UI isn’t that great. I just think that those companies are going to be under pressure because I can build a UI really easily that’s, like, very, very custom fit for what I want. can do that, like, very fast.

Robin Daniels:

Yeah, and so…

2F-Raven (6):

So I think, like, those companies are the companies that were just being like, okay, we’re just gonna build our own stuff. Again, the intelligence layer and the feel… in the system of record is the stuff that’s, like, way harder for us to build.

Robin Daniels:

That’s something that we.

2F-Raven (6):

would want to leverage. And so, like, if you just take the case of your former employer with Salesforce, like, I actually think they’re in a pretty good position. Especially if they’re really leaning into the system of record and opening up APIs, not only for human beings, but for agents. I think that’s, like, that’s the way to go.

Robin Daniels:

Yeah, I’ve been spending a lot of time with Gartner over the last couple years, and I’ve actually done this my whole career. I always enjoy speaking to them. They have some good takes. I mean, they talk a lot about system of intelligence, which I.

2F-Raven (6):

I was the thing.

Robin Daniels:

I mean, it’s like, it’s not really even system of record as much anymore. I mean, that’s, of course important, and system of… engagement, system of intelligence, system of action, really, is kind of where it’s all heading. Let me… I know we don’t have endless time, it’s a fun conversation.

If I… one thing that you probably have to kind of deal with as well is if you think about what Vercel is in the business of doing, right? You’re building these amazing platforms that live… companies build much faster themselves. And you’re selling to a lot of SaaS companies, I assume.

You’re kind of giving them the tools to kind of end their own demise. Sorry for being a little spicy. How do you, like, how do you deal with that? How do your customers see it?

2F-Raven (6):

That… that… for… for obvious reasons, that’s not exactly how we look at it. I… Look, like… Generally, I think that companies… Can have, like, An entire new… world in which they can build net new products for their customers that are delightful and amazing. I really, like, to my core, believe that. We are just facilitating that to happen.

And so, whether it’s startups, or whether it’s traditional enterprises, or whether it’s SaaS companies, or whatever, we are giving them the tools, to build delightful new things. again, like, there’s two real things that I’m interested in, is just, like, how are people gonna design for the future, and how are people gonna build for the future?

And everything that I have seen in terms of the infrastructure and the products that are coming out, you know, that have come out over the past year and a half. to facilitate these changes are incredible. I mean, they are, like. On par with, you know, the advent of software, or, like, the internet, or they’re just, like, delightful, amazing things.

And I think people need to, like, lean into that and build new, beautiful things, and we’re there to help them do that. So that’s my kind of… that’s my kind of thought.

Robin Daniels:

It’s funny.

2F-Raven (6):

SaaS companies and other companies.

Robin Daniels:

That’s a… that’s an optimist take, and I love it.

2F-Raven (6):

Yeah, yeah.

Robin Daniels:

I’m an internal optimist myself. The last kind of area I want to just touch upon, and it’s very near and dear to my heart, is just around what it does to kind of… how do you think about future generations of the workforce? How does it look at Vercel? Like, is there still room for entry-level folks?

What about in general, like, will the orc shapes change from being to pyramid shape, where you have the very junior level, who comes up through the ranks, and so on? And the reason I… it’s very personal to me also.

I have a son who’s a sophomore in college, and he’s studying computer science, and, you know, soon he’ll be out there in the world looking for a job.

2F-Raven (6):

Yeah.

Robin Daniels:

to have a path, right? How are you thinking about it? What are you seeing?

2F-Raven (6):

I… I share your personal feeling. I have a… I have a junior in university as a math major. So I’m… I’m with you. I’m with you with the parental concern.

Robin Daniels:

Huh?

2F-Raven (6):

So, look, like, I believe… strongly that, all of these technologies will add significant jobs to the workforce. Significant. Just like the internet added significant jobs to the workforce, just like, you know, the advent of the personal computer did it. And so, I think net-net, this is… Unbelievably additive to… to workers.

Those workers will be more productive.

Robin Daniels:

Generally.

2F-Raven (6):

And that’s what this technology is going to do, just like the prior technologies that I just mentioned did as well. Like, productivity will increase. You know, the question for people, like, coming out of school is just, like, well, what are those jobs? You know, where do you go into?

For all of the salespeople, you know, on the call, I think actually sales is, like, a very, like, protected group. just because it’s, like, selling things is, like, complicated. It’s hard to sort of, like, get efficiency out.

But I would generally say that, like, low-level workers of low-level tasks go away, and I think that people coming into the workforce are going to be, like, a lot more valuable, a lot more productive. And I think there’s gonna be, like. Plenty of jobs, including engineering jobs.

Robin Daniels:

Absolutely. I, I, I, I share… honestly, I really share your sentiment. I think… AI will disrupt everything to do with hard skills. It already has, you know, it can do it faster, better.

Doesn’t mean there’s not room for hard skills, you just have to, like, learn to keep up with them and change your thinking around it, like you’ve said many times today, I think AI will not disrupt everything to do with soft skills.

I think it’s more important than ever to learn how to communicate and collaborate and understand and have that customer understanding, customer empathy, teamworker empathy, all those kind of things.

becomes even more important, because if you want to be able to lead and guide, you know, an organization, then people will look to those people who have those skills en masse. But I agree, I think technology itself, I mean. I was just thinking today.

100 years ago, if you wanted to make a phone call, you’d have to get out of your apartment, go down to a phone booth somewhere and make a call, right? And it’s like, what a hassle. And then suddenly, 50 years later, everyone had a phone in their home. Okay, now you can make a phone call much easier, but you have to be in your home.

And then, you know, now 20 years later, suddenly everyone had a phone in their pocket, and no matter where you are in the world, right? And now we can communicate, you know, instantly at the speed of thought, more or less.

I mean, there’s always been changes, and… as long as they go towards a future that’s much more around freeing us up to do the things that humans are really good at, the creative endeavors, figuring out new challenges… I mean, I think about how many challenges we have.

as a global society, whether that’s around poverty, inequality, and so on, if we can free up people’s creative brainpower to solve those challenges, think about how a better world we would all have. So I’m very optimistic that AI can help us do exactly that.

2F-Raven (6):

Yeah, I would also say, you know, just to, you know, your son, I think, right, in university, studying computer science, my daughter studying math, I actually also think that in this world, a deep understanding about how the engineering behind all of these technologies, and from a math perspective, like, LLMs are just like math. Right?

Totally, totally. a deep understanding of how those things work is actually an advantage. And so, like, you would think that, like, oh, vibe coding, you don’t need computer I, I remember.

Robin Daniels:

Good, very well.

2F-Raven (6):

I don’t think that’s… I really don’t think that’s true. Like, I think a deep understanding actually allows you to harness these technologies in, like, a much better… better and more productive way.

Robin Daniels:

Yeah, my son’s studying computer science, and he’s doing a double major in computer science and in philosophy, and I actually think, again, to your point, it’s a beautiful thing. Learn how to understand how the machine works, but also be able to reason and have logic behind what you actually do, and so on.

He’s at the University of Madison, or University of Wisconsin-Madison. Go Badgers! Very excited. But, this has been a great conversation, Nick. Thank you so much for taking the time and sharing.

2F-Raven (6):

I really enjoyed it.

Robin Daniels:

with all of us. I hope that everybody here who’s listening in got some value out of that. Connect with myself or with Nick on LinkedIn. We’re happy, of course, to continue to chat. Thank you so much for the talk.

2F-Raven (6):

Alright, thanks for having me, Robin, I enjoyed it.

Julia Nimchinski:

Thank you so much, Nick and Robin, and before you leave, phenomenal conversation. Can we do just a minute of shameless plugs? What are you working on, Robin and Nick at Vercel? Or should our people go?

Robin Daniels:

Great question. Well, you can go find me on LinkedIn. I just released my first book. I finally became an author last month. It was released on May the 4th, Star Wars Day, I’m a nerd, so it came out on Star Wars Day. It’s called The Human Success Playbook, and it’s really a book around how AI and humans will coexist successfully in an organization.

So you can go check it out. If you just send me a note on LinkedIn, I’m happy to send you a free copy.

Julia Nimchinski:

I’ll make sure to share it. Nick, how about yourself?

2F-Raven (6):

I guess the plug is, if you’re building, for the web or building for agents, check out Vercel.com and hit me up on LinkedIn, and I’d be happy to help.

Julia Nimchinski:

Thank you so much.

2F-Raven (6):

Alright, thank you.

Robin Daniels:

Thank you, everyone. Take care. Bye.